Transcript — HE’S BACK! Fr Stephen De Young | Orthodox Q&A | Old Testament Continuity | AMA

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00:06 Hey, how’s it going? Welcome to Cleave to Antiquity. Today I’m joined by a very special guest, Father Steven the Young. How’s it going? >> I am well. >> Thanks for coming on the show. I’m glad to glad to see you here. This will be exciting. Um, we just wrapped up uh the video response to a messenger of truth. I know you said you were watching a bit of that. What were your thoughts? Well, uh, I I warned people last time that I was mean. So, uh, one one of the most stupid people I’ve ever seen. Uh, and I use stupid as a technical term. I think I said this last time, right? Like being ignorant does not make you stupid. We’re all ignorant about more things than we know about. but being stupid and he’s a classical case because like his confidence level is 100 and his knowledge level is zero.

01:00 >> Right. And and that’s what makes you stupid when you you speak as if you know what you’re talking about and you know so little like it’s the the fullness of the Dunning Krueger effect giving given bodily form, right, that that we’re looking at. I think some of the highlights were he basically said he said icon veneration is idolatry and what I mean by that is bowing down to anyone that is not God. >> Yeah. [laughter] Yeah. Well, to me to me the highlight was that doing things like uh oh, I’m going to disprove uh the veneration of the Theotocos by quoting the scripture passage that is the gospel reading at every single feast of the Theotocos.

01:46 >> Right. Yes. And and I’m I’m going to I’m going to disprove the Eucharist by quoting the words of institution, >> That are used [laughter] every time the Eucharist is celebrated. >> Oh my goodness. >> He doesn’t understand. So this this is also exhibit A of why we have to distinguish Protestants from >> Right. Because because that guy is not a >> Right. He has no understanding of even the Protestant form of the Christian religion. like he he is off in this other realm of choose your own adventure, invent your own religion, right? Like it’s it’s not even Christianity anymore. >> Yeah. I mean that that does that is what that guy kind of strikes me as. I mean obviously pray for him.

02:32 Pray for a messenger of truth. If he ever wanted to have a private conversation, uh you know, I’ I’d be willing to chat with him. But what I will say is all of those arguments I’ve noticed in the entire video are just projection. It’s projection. All of that could be circled back at him at his own belief system. He said, “Oh, it’s like you’re you’re you’re [snorts] just being emo you’re going off of your emotions, what you feel, what your interpretation is.” No, that’s literally what your system is doing. We’re the exact opposite. >> Yeah. I thought at first he was trying he was doing that as a tactic because I do that sometimes. You take one of your opponent’s arguments and you use it against them. So, I thought, “Oh, well, maybe he’s trying to do this, you know, but then I quickly realized like, no, he doesn’t know enough to be doing that on purpose.

03:19 He’s just >> bumbling around.” >> But yeah, the the And they weren’t even I said this to you right before we went live. They’re not even his arguments. Like I know like his his looking into orthodoxy was watching a bunch of other Protestant videos about Eastern and then like cosplaying as the lead singer for some 41 and delivering those arguments badly. >> that’s what that was. >> Yeah, it was a it was a bit of a mess, but I’m glad we were able to get together and do that response video. Uh cuz his statements were wild. He said, he said, “You are um” He said, “You’re dogs.” He said, “Uh, you know, you,” what did he say? He said, “You’re going to rot in hell.” Even though he’s an he said, “You’re going to rot in hell.” So, he hates he hates the Orthodox so much he changes his entire theology.

04:10 >> To say that just the the Orthodox are going to rot. Everybody else is just going to get burnt to a great >> There’s an eternal hell just for you. >> Yeah. Exactly. >> Old pot will will be annihilated, but not you. You >> Exactly. It’s because the It’s because we’re we’re so we’re so wicked we actually we bow down. But don’t you know the the act of bowing in and of itself is idolatry according to him. So >> Lord of mercy. All right. No, >> the the problem there, right? Um the the the problem there, the reason he doesn’t understand that, right? If you’re an evangelical, you don’t have any concept of the difference between veneration and worship because you don’t worship. There is no worship taking place at evangelical churches.

04:59 >> Because there is no sacrifice, >> There is no offering of the Eucharist. There’s no offering of incense. There’s no sacrifice. Dogmatically, the Eucharist isn’t a sacrifice for them. So all they do is venerate God, >> right? So when they see us venerating anyone else, they’re like, “Oh, you’re >> Yeah. Yeah. >> Because they’ve never done it in their life. That’s >> Well, it was interesting because the proof text that one of the proof texts he used was literally someone showing veneration to the Theotocos. >> Yeah. [laughter] They don’t like he doesn’t like >> An actual Calvinist, right? like or an actual Lutheran would have responded to him the same way I just did.

05:45 >> Like you don’t know what you’re talking about. You need to be quiet and learn something before you try and teach. Right. Like >> All right. I got I got a super chat from my Lutheran friend Geralt. He said, “Clee, don’t you think it’s bedtime for somebody as bald as you? Your hair focals need rest.” It’s over. It’s over, dude. Good to see you. All right, let’s let’s get started into our um into our discussion, but let me let the chat know. We got Alex Saurin in the chat. What’s up, man? Thank you for uh for the stream. It was fun. If y’all want to support the show, send in super chats. You can send your questions in in the form of a super chat. We will jump you in line. Uh but we’re going to have a talk on Old Testament continuity first, then we’ll get into the Q&A. So, send your questions in, put a Q in front. If you send in a super chat, you’ll jump in line. But >> you need to you need to work on your transitions, man.

06:31 You should have done the Yeah, you know, hair plugs cost a lot of money, so send in your [laughter] >> Yeah, exactly. Exactly. Hair plugs are very expensive. I’ll I’ll uh I’ll do the uh from the office. Um uh the the main character, gosh, what is his name? I don’t know why I’m brainw. >> Yes, Michael Scott. Season one. He had the thin hair, then he got the hair plugs. It was good. He was good to go. No, I’ll just go bald. I’ll shave it all off whenever it’s done. You’ll see me one day. I’ll actually look like the thumbnail where I said, “Catholic news is making me bald and I just have like a big head.” I’ll actually look like that randomly on one stream. So, >> you want to do the John Cena thing and look like you have a brillow pad on your head for about three months while it grows in. >> There you go. If Well, if I did, if I ever had something like that, I’d have the beanie, the Timool beanie for a little [laughter] There you go.

07:23 I don’t think I’d sit there with a with a nasty plug head. [laughter] >> That’s not a good look. just like scalp bleeding on on the podcast >> like a Chia Pet up there. Yeah. >> Yeah. That’s that’s tough. That’s horrible. All right. So, um thanks again for coming on the show. I know um I know you uh you recently have have written a book called The Bale Book, uh which was um uh which a lot of people were were discussing uh not that long ago. I know we wanted to talk about Old Testament continuity. You have a lot of information on that. This came up in a live stream I did a couple of days ago, which was kind of the inspiration for this show. Somebody had sent in requesting this subject. So, I know [snorts] you’re kind of a master in this field, so I’m glad to have you on to discuss it.

08:11 >> Yeah. I mean, yes, that’s I mean, religion of the apostles, that’s really what it’s about. Uh it’s it’s trying to demonstrate that all of the beliefs of Christianity following the veneration of the saints, the sacraments, the church, etc., etc., all of that was extant in second temple Judaism, particularly in the first century AD. And so not only did the apostles have access to it, right? But uh this is what they were practicing. This is the religion they were in the world. and that, you know, their writings in the New Testament evidence >> um that they had these ideas and yeah, there’s this presupposition that’s a basic presupposition um to evangelicalism that is uh that sort of Christ comes and sort of okay, we’re done with Judaism like that’s over.

09:23 That was like religion and now we’re starting from scratch with religion 2.0 which is Christianity. uh the only even though of course you know they’re not going to want to sound like Marcianites. They’re not going to say no no the Old Testament is scripture. The Old Testament is scripture. Um but functionally [laughter] right in terms of their solos scripter arguments it functionally isn’t for that. So, exhibit A, right? Uh, Presbyterians, your sort of diehard rock ribbed Calvinists have what they call the regulatory principle of worship, >> Which is the only the only things you do in worship are things that the Bible commands you to do in worship.

10:17 And when they say that by the Bible, they only mean the New Testament. >> Right. [laughter] >> Yeah. they they do not read the Bible, right? Um and so that’s kind of exhibit A of this thing that like, oh no, no, no, no, no, no. Forget about all that, >> right? Um so the the how do I want to approach this? So the way they justify that, the way they try to work around Marcianism, [laughter] right, and not being one, not saying, “Oh, we’re just going to reject the Old Testament.” Uh, nevertheless, we’re going to substantively ignore it. is Calvin’s distinction between the the civil and ceremonial and moral laws which has bled out from Cal well all of Protestantism and evangelicalism in the United States had this Calvinist Puritan layer at the bottom.

11:23 >> Right. Right. That’s that’s the first wave of Christianity in this country. So this affected everyone. Now, never mind that that distinction appears nowhere in the scriptures. >> Least of all in the Torah itself, right? The law itself does not make any of those distinctions. And never mind the fact that in order to do that, it’s sort of like the Jedp thing. You have to like go through a chapter of Leviticus and be like, “Okay, well, this verse is civil law and this next verse is moral law.” And then you got three verses of ceremonial law and then you got >> Yeah, that’s a that’s an interesting critique especially from the solos scriptural framework. You have to accept some level of tradition and you’re well you’re making up your own tradition at that point.

12:14 So you’re appealing to something outside of the scripture to even get to that distinction. You know what I mean? >> These categories of this categorization. >> Yeah. A modern modern tradition. >> Yeah. Yeah. And well, so they can appeal to this being an ancient distinction. There’s a problem with it >> The first place where you actually see that distinction in the law, and I don’t think most Calvinists know this. I don’t even know that John Calvin knew this, >> But the first place you see that is actually, believe it or not, in the 3rd century in a text called the letter to Tommy. Unfortunately, it’s a Gnostic And the Gnostic author of the letter to Talamy was trying to do like a middle way between Marcianism and Orthodoxy.

13:06 >> Right. [laughter] >> By categorizing Well, some of this we keep and then some of it we just junk. >> Right. Yeah. I was I was going to say that probably some kind of pseudo pseudo Marcianism uh text. Pseudoarcian text. >> Yeah. It was semi semiarianism, I guess. >> Yeah, there you That would be the right way to say it. >> Yeah. I I I feel like um I feel like that’s that is kind of a a common thread with a lot of different modern Protestant distinctions. You see them make appeals to condemned heretics quite often. Uh you see them make appeals to um uh to origin for some of the exceptions in its theology or to maybe say Tertullian. You’ll see like the church fathers taught this. It’s like some some Protestant um videos like the church fathers taught this and they appealed to origin of Tertullian.

13:56 We did we did a video me and Alex not that long ago responding to a guy whose name was like reformed pastor and he was like the early church taught this. Those were the two people he appealed to. So >> it seems to be a common thread. >> Yeah. Or was opposed to icons. G whiz. I wonder if it’s because he was a platonist, you know, like [laughter] yeah. So u yeah but to to their credit I’ve never seen any Calvinist appeal to the letter to Talmate to justify. But the other place where this becomes super problematic is of course Christ says he didn’t come to abolish the Torah but to fulfill it. >> Right? He says not a not a a yod or timl or jot or tit if you’re a KJV guy uh is going to pass away.

14:46 Right? >> That’s um and so you know all of our Protestant and evangelical friends will be quick to say no no no we don’t believe we don’t believe Christ abolished it we believe he fulfilled it >> but first of all in a lot of cases fulfilled and abolished are basically synonyms for them because either way they throw it in the dust bin right but but also then you have this problem of now that you’ve made this distinction of these three parts of the Torah Torah or the law or the commandments that Christ fulfills them all in completely different ways. [laughter] >> So Christ fulfills the moral law by keeping it perfectly but then it still Whereas he fulfills the ceremonial law by keeping it perfectly but it no longer applies because he kept it perfect.

15:38 Right? And then the civil law could go either way. So it it depends. Um, most Protestants, evangelicals will say, “He fulfilled the civil law perfectly and it’s gone.” But then you get your theonomists and your Christian nationalists and stuff who want to say, “He fulfilled it perfectly and no, we need to reinstitute it.” >> Yeah. It it depends if they’re preaching on tithing that week or not. That’s really [laughter] >> Yeah. Yeah. >> That’s what it comes down to. In the Old Testament, they kept 10%. So therefore, give me 10% of your money. Oh, but wait, no, no, no. He fulfilled all this stuff. But except for that one. That one you still got to keep though. >> Yeah. I had I had someone in the Orthodox church try to pull that on me with tithing. >> They’re like, “Oh, that’s an Old Testament thing. That’s an Old Testament >> So, I I showed him a quote uh from um St.

16:30 Athanasius where he said uh in the Old Testament uh the the the Jewish people tithe 10% to God. Uh Christians do not do that. Christians give up everything they own. [laughter] >> Give it to give it to the church. And I said, “Hey, if you want to follow that instead, I’m cool.” Right. >> There you go. Yeah. Let’s let’s let’s start keeping that standard there. Give up literally everything, >> right? Yeah. Like I’m all in. >> Um but so yeah, so that that’s kind of an incoherent argument then, right? Because fulfilled means different things for the different sections of the law which partitions you’ve just created ad hoc essentially right and because it’s an ad hoc or even the proof that it’s an ad hoc segmentation is you then get debates about well is this particular commandment part of this or part of that right um this is the whole uh I I guess we have to say Skittles to get around the YouTube algorithm.

17:35 Is that the >> Yeah, there you go. [laughter] >> That’s the whole argument where they try to take those texts that are clearly certain sexual acts and they say, “Oh, well, that’s just talking about temple >> And what they’re doing there, they’re holding to that Protestant presupposition that if this is a ceremonial thing, >> then it no longer applies. So, we just have to get it recategorized, >> right? It’s not part of the moral law. It’s part of the ceremonial law that’s >> Well, well, what’s interesting about that is they’ll even do similar in the New Testament and say that it’s just some kind of like historical thing like with with head with head coverings. They do that with the head covering thing. I remember having a conversation >> with my senior pastor that was very convicting.

18:23 This was this was something that that sat with me for quite some time. Still sits with me today. And if you know anything about the the history of the abolition of head coverings in in in churches started in the Roman Catholic Church, it was because of a feminist protest, right? It wasn’t anything theological. But in Protestant circles, the excuse is they’ll say, “Oh, well, this is talking about uh you know, only temple prostitutes didn’t veil. Only temple prostitutes didn’t have head coverings on their head.” Uh so therefore, this was just a specific historical context. You don’t need to do that anymore. So, it’s I mean, first off, find me one church father, one person in the first thousand years of the church that ever said that. >> It’s a big fat zero. Yeah. You’re just making things up out of thin air, making these distinctions up. They do this even in the New Testament. It’s it’s it’s >> Yeah.

19:09 Yeah. And it’s it’s purely an [snorts] ad hoc thing, right? So uh the reality is right the reality is that everything in the old test old testament new testament continuity old testament continuity with orthodox Christianity and by that I just mean you know actual Christianity >> is 100% 100% Christ was telling the truth when he said not one yod or tim for those who don’t know anything about the yod is the smallest letter in the Hebrew alphabet It kind of looks like a comma, >> Um, and a tim like a little foot at the bottom of a Tet that lets you know it’s a Tet and not a hat.

20:01 [laughter] So, it distinguishes two letters. It’s a piece of a letter that distinguishes two letters of the alphabet. Um, and so what what Christ is saying there is true. It’s it’s all still in effect. But you have to know how to read and interpret it. >> Right. And that’s what the discussions that happen about the Torah in the New Testament, whether we’re talking about in St. Paul’s epistles like Galatians and Romans, whether we’re talking about Acts 15, right? Those discussions are about how to correctly read it. >> Right. So to use Acts 15 as an example, a lot of times people who don’t get it will sort of proof text Acts 15 is like, “Oh, see the the the law doesn’t apply in the church anymore, >> Except, you know, don’t eat food offered to idols, don’t be sexually immoral, and yeah, we don’t care about that blood thing.

21:06 Go ahead and have your sausage. Um [laughter] right but um that’s actually not at all what is happening there. Um so uh what’s happening there is if you go and you read what’s called the holiness code in Leviticus which starts in Leviticus chapter 17 and then people argue about where exactly it ends. Some people have it going all the way to the end of Leviticus. Some people have it stopping after chapter 23, but close enough for government work. If you if you right look at that section of Leviticus, it’s called the holiness code. Most of the introductions to the commandments there are given. God says to Moses, say to the sons of Israel, >> Do this.

21:55 Right? So when the food laws, the kosher regulation is given, it’s say to the sons of Israel, There are four times in the holiness code where instead God says to Moses, “Say to the sons of Israel and to all the foreigners dwelling in your midst.” And then it gives commandments. One of those is the beginning of Leviticus 18 that gives the commandments about sexual immorality. One of those is about idolatry. And twice it’s about eating blood. And so that’s the big tip off in Acts 15 is that the eating blood thing, the strangled animals and eating blood, it’s mentioned twice, right?

22:41 That connects it directly to what’s going on in Leviticus. what St. James does at that council that he’s presiding at, even though St. Peter was there for some bizarre reason. Don’t tell Roman Catholics. Um is he takes a super literal reading of Leviticus. He takes a super literal reading of the He says, “Okay, well us Jews, right, we were given this, right? >> Right. But if you read it closely, the only parts of this that apply to non-Jews living among us, right, dwelling in our communities are these four things. >> Yet it’s it’s interesting that you bring that up. You they take the hyperliteral reading of it.

23:30 We were just kind of talking about this, weren’t we? We were talking about people reading the scriptures without uh using the lens of apostolic tradition, using the lens of the the teachings of the church. Well, this is how you get uh you know, people like uh what’s his name? A messenger of truth saying that well, you know, he just makes the most wild statements. It’s like you could say, well, you’re going to take everything super hyperliteral. Well, there’s no male or female in Christ Jesus, so there’s no more genders anymore. It’s just nobody’s got genders. It’s, you know, it’s a free-for-all, you know. >> You going to take that hyperliteral as >> Yeah. Well, yeah. And Yeah. So what Acts 15 is saying is the exact opposite of the law doesn’t apply. Acts 15 is saying, “No, the Torah still applies the same way it always did, >> right, in the church.” >> Uh that non-Jewish people were never commanded to keep all this other stuff, >> And so we shouldn’t, right?

24:26 Um, and that’s so so those commandments, this actually touches on something from that video and that discussion uh that uh those commandments that were given to just the Israelites that were to set them apart from everybody else, >> were referred to everywhere in Jewish and early Christian Okay. Everywhere as the works of the Torah or the works of the law, everywhere that phrase is used outside of the Bible in early Christian sources. And Matthew Thomas, his dissertation was published, St.

25:11 Paul’s works of the law. It’s a published dissertation, so you’re reading a dissertation. But he pro he just proves this, right? He literally surveys every piece of Christian and even gnostic literature for the first three centuries of church history and shows how they all use it to refer to that. Right? And so, for example, when St. Paul says we’re not saved by works of the Torah, works of the law, he means you’re not saved by keeping those commandments that separated Jews from Gentiles, >> right? such that Gentiles would now have to keep them also. >> Right. That’s what he’s saying every single time. He’s not talking about works in general. [laughter] He’s not talking about, right, uh trying to live a life pleasing to God.

26:02 He’s not saying, you know, all the commandments are optional. Now, uh right, this is this is the caricature that St. Paul’s opponents used to get him killed. >> Mhm. [clears throat] >> That St. Paul says is false over and over again throughout the scriptures and our evangelical and Protestant friends are saying it’s true. >> That St. Paul was lying and that is what he taught. >> Right. Right. [laughter] >> Yeah. Um, which bizarre, right? >> Yeah. [laughter] Well, it’s kind of like the um uh the person that was uh chatting in the previous live stream said that uh a messenger of truth would have condemned Paul himself. You know what I mean? Based off of his line of reason, he would have he would have condemned Paul.

26:50 Uh but but according to him, he is the the arbiter of truth. the the ecumenical councils, the church, you know, for the first thousand years, the the church that continues on um is isn’t uh doesn’t define where the church is. It’s his own imagination who he thinks. >> Oh, yeah. He even has a concept of the church, which is unclear to me. Uh >> right. [laughter] Yeah. >> I mean, there really is no evangelical >> No, not at all. I mean, it’s it’s woefully deficient in my opinion, but at least like Luther and Calvin and even Zwingley had ecclesiologies, right? >> They had an understanding of the marks of the true church, right? [laughter] This kind of thing. >> I think part of the reason evangelicalism doesn’t have that is that they don’t have the marks.

27:41 >> Luther and Calvin would not have thought any of these churches were churches. >> Yeah. Yep. Yeah. I mean, just look at look at the statement. One holy Catholic apostolic. One. One. Oh, wait. The first word refutes your position. >> Yeah. Well, I mean, like Calvin, you know, uh Calvin says in book four of the Institutes that what justified him schisming from the Roman Catholic Church >> because they took seriously that you had to justify schism because schism was a sin, >> Right. Um, St. Augustine said that schism is worse than heresy. >> Because heresy is a sin against reason, but schism is a sin against love.

28:29 >> Right. And love is higher than reason. So they, the reformers themselves took that seriously. Calvin said what justified him leaving Roman Catholic Church is that they didn’t have the Eucharist anymore >> because of Eucharistic adoration. You know, you know, it’s it’s it’s super interesting that you bring I want to touch up on that before we get too far because you were talking about >> um heresy is a sin against reason. Uh schism is a sin against love. Uh father uh Damk just posted a video talking about that today that I watched. And he was he was he said something like he said uh Protestants think >> that heresy is just like a wrong concept in your mind and that’s why it’s wrong.

29:15 >> Yeah. You have the wrong opinion. Yeah. >> Yeah. They think they think it’s just having the wrong opinion. I’m going to butcher what he says. So if he wants to correct this, go ahead. [laughter] But but he said something like that. He said what heresy actually is is it’s it’s wrong teaching that is leading people to schism. So it’s the prelude to schism. Yeah. Right. Yeah. You’re you’re forming a faction. >> Kind of like the fulfillment of heresy. It’s the it’s the it’s the worst end of it. You know what I mean? >> Yeah. You’re drawing people off after yourself. Yeah. Right. Yeah. >> That’s an interesting way to put it. >> Yeah. And so, yeah. So at at cal there there are lots of thing like Luther spent a all a whole lot of his writings argue trying to argue that what he was teaching was not new because he took for granted that if no one had taught what he was teaching for like a thousand years that he was wrong.

30:09 >> He accepted that premise. >> Right. Right. >> Right. Um, and so but that shows you can can you imagine right like why did Calvin leave? How an evangelical could even un like comprehend that that that’s why Calvin left? >> Right. And and do any of those evangelical churches, even the ones that call themselves Calvinists, have anything remotely resembling a Eucharist >> three times a year whether they need it or not. Maybe with grape juice and crackers, maybe with pizza and coke. Right. Like that’s right. Like Martin Luther literally would have called literally read more about Martin Luther’s biography if you don’t believe me. Would have called upon them to be publicly executed for doing that. >> For mocking the Eucharist, >> That’s the kind of guy he was.

31:00 >> Yeah. Some some of Luther’s writings are pretty hardcore. [laughter] There was a I was watching or I I did a one of the you know the Catholic news stories or whatever, but I covered a little bit of LCMS news. They had a uh an ordained rabbi on their clergy roster that was a actual uh >> Yeah, I saw you talking about that. That’s just bizarro world. Yeah. >> Yeah, it was weird. He was a Jewish rabbi, but what what he said was >> became a Lutheran of all things. >> Yes. Of all the ones to pick like >> and and he and he did this video that was like actually Luther wasn’t so great because of he wrote uh you know on the Jews in their lives [laughter] >> called for all the synagogues to be burned. Call for What a weird what a weird denomination to be a part of as a Jewish rabbi.

31:50 But it’s and they’re supposed to be the conservative Lutheran. It’s just mind-blowing to me. I don’t know. >> Yeah. Yeah. Relatively. Relatively. They started going liberal and then pulled back and now it looks like they’re kind >> flaking out a little bit again. >> Yes. Yep. Absolutely. >> But yeah, so there’s there’s um getting back to our topic because I’m wandering as I want to do. Uh [laughter] um yeah, when you look at when you look at early Christian discussions with >> Mhm. [clears throat] >> right the whole argument whether you’re talking about St. Justin, whether you’re talking about uh I did a so I still hold out hope that someday this may be published.

32:39 I don’t know. You I’m imagining you haven’t ever published an article in an academic journal. Um sometimes they accept things for publication and then literally wait years to publish them. So >> this may see the light of day at some point. It’s a paper I did with a co-author. We presented it at a conference uh and then this journal accepted it for publication has been sitting on it for years. Um but uh about St. John >> Chrissum’s uh sermons against the >> and one of his core arguments in those homalies is uh that this is another thing that it was it was an evangelical like Bible conference academic Bible conference I [laughter] presented at too.

33:25 So they present that >> no idea. Uh, this is in the category of, you know, hey, this is my second time on this stream. I get invited a lot of places. I don’t get invited back a lot of places. Um, but they’ll probably never invite an Orthodox person again. But one of his central arguments is that uh Judaism, rabbitic Judaism at that point in the 4th century uh had uh no temple, no priesthood and no sacrifice. Mhm. >> Whereas Christianity had a temple and a priesthood and a sacrifice, >> So, evangelicals don’t know what to do with that like remotely. Half of them are probably dispensationalists and really had no, you know, um but the core of that argument is not just a gotcha, right?

34:15 Like nener your temple was destroyed, right? Like [laughter] >> it’s an argument about continuity, >> Yes. Because the rabbitic Jewish argument toward Christians was >> look what it says in the Torah, the Levitical priesthood is an eternal thing, right? The the the sacrifice sacrificial system is forever, right? Uh the the place where God is going to place his name, he’s placing it there >> Right. And so that was their counterargument to Christianity, right? So that and that therefore since those are forever your priesthood your whatever you’re doing over there that’s >> right and so St.

35:01 John Chrissum’s response is part one. Really? It’s eternal, huh? Well, where is it now? >> Now, where is that sacrificial system right now? >> Who knows? [laughter] Let’s find out right now. >> And then part two, he’s not just saying, “Oh, we have one.” >> Right? Because a Hindu could say, “I have a temple and I have a sacrifice and I have a priesthood.” Right? He’s saying that the Christian one is the continuation of that. >> Right. He’s saying, “I can tell you where it is right now. It’s in your local Christian church.” >> Right. That’s where it is. Uh but that is an argument for >> with the Old Testament.

35:51 Right. that that yes, these things are forever, but now here’s where they are, albeit in fulfilled form because the Messiah has come and his the the the Jewish person he’s arguing with would have to admit, well, yes, if the Messiah has come, that changes it, you know, things, [laughter] right? Things are going to be transformed, right, by the fact that that has happened. They deny it has, but still they accept the postulate that when that happens, these things will into this uh fulfilled form. >> Yeah. I mean the the the Old Testament uh talks about it quite a bit. Um you know that the uh pro prophesies this new covenant with new promises uh and also with also uh with uh it prefigures talking about the Eucharist talks about uh the Eucharist the in the last um for the Protestants in the last book of their Old Testament.

36:48 It talks about uh talks about the institution of the Eucharist. So, I mean, I I feel like there’s a lot that they kind of have to pick and choose to hold up to whatever hermeneutic they’re trying to use to say that there is a differentiation between some of these things and like, oh, it’s a civil, it’s the it’s the moral. These things don’t carry over. We’re just going to kind of la this part. This part goes here, so on and so forth. But you find the full continuity as with just about continuity with just about uh everything else in in uh Christian history in >> orthodoxy. This is the this is a common theme um discussing this with >> with Protestants. The question that I always ask and I always try to frame it around this this um this point here because it makes it easy for them to digest is well you know just like the guy that we were talking about in the last stream.

37:36 He says, “Well, where, you know, everybody says they’re the one true church, and you’ve got like this group that says they’re the one true church. This person says they’re the one true church.” It’s like the atheist, which religion is correct? There’s so many religions. Which one’s correct? Argument. Well, for Christianity to say, “Which is the one true church?” Well, which is the church that one, Christ established, and two follows the teachings that the apostles taught their disciples and was handed down faithfully. Well, guess what? The only place that you find that in is in the Orthodox church. We have the same faith as the Christians of the first thousand years of the church. [snorts] Um that the church was a one institution and the uh boundaries of that were defined by the anathemas. Guess what? We still hold to them. Uh Roman Catholics not so much anymore. Uh Protestants not not really at all in practice.

38:23 Anglicans will say they do, but they they don’t they they hold a branch theory. You don’t believe >> you don’t believe these that cops are condemned heretics? Like no. like anyway >> well let let’s let’s set aside let’s set aside the the early church for a second of the first century >> right if you look at the church in the era of St. Ambrose and St. Augustine in the west >> and uh St. Basil the great St. Gregory the theologian St. John chrostm in the right? What church today is doing exactly what they did, >> You know who I stole that argument from? >> That’s pretty much a quote >> from an argument that John Calvin made to uh Cardinal Satalto during the so by Calvin’s standard, by John Calvin standard, the Orthodox Church is the true church.

39:27 Um, >> but [laughter] um yeah, so a couple things about about the vocabulary, right? So I mentioned them doing the weird things with fulfillment, right? Where like, well, Christ kept this and fulfilled it, but it still applies. Well, Christ kept this and he fulfilled it. So now it doesn’t apply, right? Where they’re >> weirdly equivocating. So there’s this tendency to read the word fulfill in terms of this idea that prophecy is predicting the right? So there is something in the Old Testament that predicts the future. >> Something about Christ in particular. And so then once Christ actually comes, right?

40:17 So once Christ is actually born in Bethlehem, the prophecy that he’d be born in Bethlehem, right? Oh, that’s fulfilled, so we don’t need to worry about it anymore. It fulfilled its purpose, right? Like >> prophecy fulfillment. Um, that’s not what the word fulfill means. The word fulfill means literally filled full, like filled up to overflowing. And so when the New Testament talks about fulfillment, it’s referring to that >> This is why so many people interpret uh St. Matthew’s gospel so badly, right? Because they share presuppositions with atheists, frankly, right?

41:05 So your local atheist will come to you with prophecies in St. Matthew’s gospel like out of Egypt I have called my son. >> Oh, have you gone and looked that up? That’s clearly talking about Israel. That’s not talking about Jesus. And your typical evangelical response to that is no, no, no, it’s talking about Jesus. [laughter] It’s just predicting the future about Jesus, right? Uh and trying to dogle that into the original context somehow, right? or um the one that everybody gets all hot and bothered about when they’re trying to condemn the Maseretic text uh for no reason. Uh [laughter] the the whole uh a virgin or a young woman shall bear a >> right?

41:51 And the the atheist points out, well, that’s talking about the sereroite war. That’s not talking about Jesus. Right? And again, you get the evangelical who says, no, no, no, no, no, no. you have to dogle this into that that this is talking about Jesus. That’s not what St. Matthew is doing. Right? So to use the second one during the Siramite war, which is badly named because it wasn’t between the Syrians and the Ephreites, the Syrians and the Ephmites were on the same side and were attacking Judah. But [laughter] uh during the serite war, Isaiah this woman standing here is going to have a baby and before that baby is old enough to know good right from wrong, good from evil, right? Before he’s weaned, God will have delivered Judah.

42:42 Right? That’s the original context, right? St. Matthew takes that pattern. Look, the birth of this child was this was the sign from God that deliverance for his people, right, had come and says Christ takes that pattern, right? The birth of Christ takes that pattern and fills it up to overflowing. >> Right? It is the much more extreme right example. It is the reality, right? This was like a shadow of that. >> This was like a sort of minor application of that principle. >> And here’s the whole thing. >> Right. And so when we talk about the Torah or the commandments of the Torah being fulfilled, right, we don’t mean, oh, that was pointing to Christ somehow prophetically and so now we’re done with it because because Christ’s here.

43:41 We mean that, right? So the Sabbath that was on the last day of the week pointing to this rest for God’s people in the future >> is transformed into the Lord’s day, >> The resurrection, the beginning of the new heavens and the new earth. >> On the first day of the week because now that has come in Christ, right? That’s fulfillment, right? [laughter] Filling up, >> right, to overflowing. The the other term I want to mention was new uh a lot of times people use that new covenant language to say, “Oh, no, it’s brand new. Like the old Covenant’s gone, right? I got rid of my old Chevy. I bought a new Chevy.” Right?

44:27 Like um and and they’re similar in some ways, but the new Chevy is way better in a whole bunch of other ways, you know? Um and that’s not really especially in Greek what ki which is the word that’s translated new uh like new testament is ki dethiki right new covenant um uh ki uh means more like renewed or >> And [clears throat] a place where you can see this really obviously is in first John when St. John says, “A new commandment I give to you. Love one another.” >> Right. Yes. >> That doesn’t mean they’d never heard that before. >> Correct. Yeah. >> He goes on to say, “But this isn’t a new commandment because this is what we’ve told you from the beginning.” >> Right.

45:16 But now I give it to you a new, >> right? It is refreshed. It is renewed. [laughter] Right. It is begun again. Right. That’s the idea behind Kani, right? Uh, the old covenant went ary as St. Paul explains, not because God did something wrong, >> Because humanity failed. >> Correct. Israel failed. >> Yes. [snorts] I I was going to say this is almost this concept is almost spoonfed to us in the concept of Israel. >> Uh where the where the church is Israel. It is the it is the fulfillment. It’s the flowing over it. It’s Yeah. Absolutely. That’s very beautiful. flowing over to all the nations of the world, right?

46:02 >> And and so >> it’s be the covenant has begun again. So everyone the Jews get a new beginning, [laughter] right, in Christ to start over after being under the curse of the Torah from Deuteronomy 30 because of their disobedience. They get a new start, right? And now the Gentiles, the the rest of the nations >> are [clears throat] invited in given this new start, >> right? That it is it is refreshed, right? And renewed. Um so that termin really understanding that terminology and the dynamic going on there is >> If if you were trying to explain this in that evangelical church, they probably would with with the especially if they were dispensationalists.

46:50 I mean, >> yeah. [laughter] >> Yeah. It’s like, what do you mean? All of this stuff is, >> you know, there’s two people. Don’t you understand? You know. >> Yeah. Well, that’s I mean, that’s a lot what I’m doing in Religion of the Apostle. There’s a section on Israel, for example, in there. >> And the reason why uh it’s pretty much all It’s always funny. I’ve I’ve gotten some Protestants saying, “Oh, you know, all the all it has are biblical citations. Why aren’t there more citations outside the Bible?” I’m like, “You’re a Protestant.” Like, That should be a feature, not a bug for you. Like what? >> Right. [laughter] >> But it’s just littered with scripture references because I want people to look this up and see that it’s there. >> Right. Um that this is all right there uh in the way that that uh the scriptures actually talk about it.

47:41 You have to come into these texts with certain presuppositions. >> Right. Right. Yes. and you have to ignore certain other texts or marginalize them, right, in order to take that that Protestant reading. It’s just they’ve been taught that Protestant reading and they’ve been taught the scriptures through that grid. >> Right. Through that tradition of men. Sorry guys. Uh [laughter] >> these are traditions of man. Don’t you understand that? These are traditions of And and so every time they come to it, to borrow a metaphor from St. Paul, they’re reading it through a veil, right? They’re they’re, you know, um you don’t the Romans road does not actually cover every verse of Romans.

48:29 Have you >> why? Yeah. >> It hop skips through the book. Yeah. And so there’s just there there’s there’s just texts, you know, and there’s things one of the one of the is related to atonement. But I’ve had a lot of people who are thinking about orthodoxy who come from an evangelical tradition who all I say to them is go look for yourself. Find me one place in the Old Testament where they place sins on an animal and then sacrifice it. there is no place. And that’s been huge for a bunch of people who have shown up at my parish >> because they’ve been taught all their that you put the sins on the animal and you kill it, [laughter] >> right?

49:22 And that’s what sacrifice is to get rid of sins. And when they find out that that is nowhere in the Bible, >> that calls into question what they were taught about the atonement, the death of Christ, ultimately the gospel, what they were told the gospel is, >> right? And all that stuff starts unraveling just from saying, “Hey,” and it’s something you could just, “Hey, go look.” Right. Don’t don’t believe me. Go. Right. >> Right. Yeah. Yeah. [snorts] And that and that’s um I feel like that’s a huge presupposition to break for Protestants coming into orthodoxy is this kind of penal substitutionary atonement presupposition. You see this quite a bit uh uh especially amongst converts um where it seems to be a very difficult hurdle for people to come across. But you’re you’re writing a book on this subject, aren’t you?

50:10 >> Yeah, that’s the book I’m currently finishing up the manuscript for. Yeah. >> Very nice. Yeah, I’m looking forward to that. That’ll be awesome. Yeah. And so a last kind of piece on the continuity, the places where something is fulfilled and that sort of changes how it’s applied and how it functions. The New Testament points to that, >> right? We’re not left to guess like why do we not sacrifice animals >> Well, Hebrews tells you that, >> Right. It tells you the difference between the New Testament and the Old Testament priesthood in Hebrews. >> The New Testament tells us that they began meeting to celebrate the Eucharist on the Lord’s day. >> Right.

50:56 So these things that are fulfilled and therefore that changes the application in Christ we’re told about. Uh so that implies that for example if we were supposed to stop offering incense to God with prayer in the morning and the >> which is the first commandment about worship in the Bible. >> In Exodus we’re supposed to stop doing Where does it say that? >> Right. Exactly. [laughter] Right? Uh if now uh if before uh children were included in the covenant and baby boys were sacrificed on the eighth day and now children are excluded from the covenant until they’re adults and could choose for themselves, right?

51:48 And we withhold baptism from children. Where is that? >> Right? Right? Because I can show you St. connecting circumcision and baptism like five different times. Not just the actual ritual act, but the theology of it. So, for example, if if you’re going to an Orthodox church that’s on the new calendar, uh we already had the feast of the circumcision of Christ. I think it’s still coming up. Yeah, it’s in a day or two if you’re in an old calendar church. Uh, pay attention to the epistle reading where St. Paul says, “We’ve all been circumcised with Christ circumcision because we’ve been baptized,” [laughter] >> um or when St.

52:44 Paul uh says that talks a a married couple in which one member of the couple has is um has become a Christian and the other one is not >> and he says that the faithful spouse sanctifies the other right makes the other one holy and the children holy right he’s taking the Jewish theology of circumcision because you didn’t circumcise women, right? So, a man was part of Israel because he was circumcised and ate the A woman was part of Israel because she was the hus the wife or the daughter of a circumcised male.

53:34 Um, so the male’s circumcision made his wife and his daughters holy, made them part of Israel. >> And so St. Paul is applying that to baptism. But since we baptize both men and women, St. Paul says it works both >> So a faithful wife sanctifies her children and her husband. >> In the same way that Right. So that there’s another place, right, where baptisms are. So this is a sorry Baptists section of >> we’ll have um we’ll have Keith Fosski on to have a conversation with you about baptism or something. I don’t know anybody in the Protestant apologetics world that doesn’t believe in baptismal regeneration at this point besides maybe I don’t know, Kelly Powers.

54:26 Is he still relevant today? Uh Keith Fosski would be the only one. I think even even the even the quote unquote Baptists uh believe in some form of baptism or regeneration. It seems like now like uh Gavin has a video talking about his distinction, but he believes baptism saves for me. It’s like >> why are you Baptist then? Like isn’t that kind of like the whole stick? I don’t know. >> Well, yeah. Yeah. It’s like >> Oh, that’s true. Somebody said William Lane Craig. That’s true. >> Well, William Lane Craig is the omni heretic, right? Like >> He is fractally wrong. He chooses a heretical option for every single point of doctrine. >> That’s true. That is >> they don’t even always fit together, right? Like it’s just >> published a published a book with trinitarian heresy in it.

55:14 [snorts] >> Right. Yeah. >> Several books with christoologgical heresy. Like he openly calls himself a neoapolinarian. He says his Christologology is neoapolinarian. >> Good grief. And it’s like, you do realize that putting Neo in front of it doesn’t make it better, right? >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It’s like uh it’s like saying I’m I’m a Neo Aaran. What do you mean? What do you mean by that? >> Oh, a Neo. Okay. Well, that’s that’s fine then. I’m sure you fixed all the bad stuff from the old one. >> Yeah, exactly. >> The old [laughter] version. >> Yeah. Good grief. >> All right. Well, uh is there is there anything you want to you want to put a cap on that with and then we’ll move into Q&A? >> I mean, I think that’s it. I mean, I imagine in the Q&A people have some questions about some of that, but >> absolutely. So, we’ll we’ll shift into the Q&A uh segment now.

56:02 So, if you want to send in a question, go ahead and send it with a Q in front. If you want to skip the line, send in a super chat and we’ll get to your questions first. I have a backlog of super chats to read now with questions. Uh so, we’ll we’ll see we’ll see how we get with the regular ones, but I’ll go ahead and we’ll we’ll get started here because we got a quite a bit of questions that are pretty good. Uh, ordinary Orthodox. Uh, my Anglican friend claims Old Testament forbids petitioning angels and saints in the divine council. How to refute Bible second temple sources? >> Uh, well, first citation needed, >> Where where does it forbid that? Uh, there the there is no place.

56:49 >> Yeah. Uh and there’s evidence in uh so Job is the example that gets quoted a lot. Uh Rachel weeping for her children as the people are going into exile. Um and not only is all this stuff there, this is the way all the Jewish sources interpreted it. There are prayers if you go to second temple Jewish lurggics on the day of atonement. They pray to the angels of the chauffear. They like >> I mean this is this this was just common practice. They made pilgrimages to uh Makpala where the patriarchs were buried and uh invoked their prayers. Like this is I mean it’s rare that you find a Jewish person who even denies this and like acidic Jews still do it [clears throat] >> to this day.

57:43 Um, so yeah, that it’s it’s it’s not even weird from a Jewish >> in the in the actual Old Testament, it it has uh you know, prayers to angels. >> you know, if you if you don’t take a bunch of books out >> Yeah. Yeah. Well, yeah. And I mean, every time every time they’re invoked, right, you read read the last six Psalms, right? Like, praise him all his angels. Praising him all his hosts, >> You’re addressing the angels. [laughter] >> Yes. Yes. Correct. >> And calling upon them to, right, worship along with you. >> Yeah. Did y’all see that? For only $60, you can have a personal one-on-one consultation with Voice of Apostasy.

58:31 Oh my goodness. He’s charging. He’s paying to do one-on- ones now. So, I don’t know if you’re >> if someone will sponsor that, I’ll go and just make fun of him for to overlook that one-on-one last. >> Yeah, there you go. So, send uh send Father Steven the Young 60 bucks. He’ll go pay for a one-on-one consult with Voice of Reason. That would be wild. That would be an interesting stream if you ever did that. [laughter] >> I don’t think he I don’t think it would ever be public. I don’t think >> No. No. You just like go in there and just stare at him, you know? >> Yeah. [laughter] >> No, that’s wild. I’ll have to check that out because um do you think that’s the last thing that someone like that would want to be doing? Isolating people in a one-on-one environment after a you know uh adult >> selling cameos.

59:18 >> Yeah. That’s that’s >> that’s not a drift. This guy’s recycling >> Right. Like he’s he’s he’s in it for the money. Like so it’s not that surprising, right? Like >> did you see not that long ago he went to a mega church and was worshiping there and was like uh oh I’d love to go back. I’d love to go back. He really doesn’t care. The voice of reason guy. >> Yeah. Lord of mercy. That’s wild. $60. You can have a one-on-one chat with Voice of Reason. He could tell you the uh the Council of Ephesus aired and all sorts of other stuff. So [laughter] uh question. Father, can you please explain what grace is and how it functions and how we interact with it? Thank you. >> So, uh, grace is the divine energies meaning it’s God in action.

1:00:12 God in person acting right in in our life uh and in creation, right? Um that is that is what grace is and we participate in that by cooperating with uh and not setting ourselves against it. So um God is eternally and continually active in his creation. >> The example [clears throat] I use for this is you know the the person who you see on the street who needs help, right? God loves that person. God has eternally loved that person. When you go and you show love to that person, you show God’s love to that person, you’re participating in God’s love for that person.

1:01:06 >> And you participating in it will both right bless that person and you will be by God’s love. >> Uh in the process. Yeah. The synerg synergistic understanding is very important. When I was a I’ll say this very very quickly and then we’ll we’ll move on in a little bit but um one of the things that really struck me when I was a Protestant pastor I used to teach in apologetics class and you know we we held a solid day and things like this and we’re talking about the role the role of works in salvation and uh I kind of came to realize that I subconsciously held to a synergistic position when I said something along the lines of well you know in reading the Bible uh you get you get grace which actually strengthens your faith.

1:01:56 So these things kind of feed into one another and you know so on and so forth and keeps you remaining in the faith so on and so forth. I’m like wait a minute I’m teaching uh you know synergism. So >> yeah actual Christianity creeps out. >> Yes. Yes. >> There’s a great clip uh I’ll have to find it. It’s from a few years ago where James White is trying to argue against Eastern Orthodoxy and teach us synergism. Yeah. >> Accidentally because he says somebody somebody points out like look at how much scripture there is in an Orthodox service, right? Because an Orthodox service is just drenched in scripture, >> Top to bottom, >> And so somebody points that out to James White on dividing line and James White says, “Well, sure there’s they they read a lot of scripture, right?

1:02:47 But you have to look at the preaching, right? Are they really preaching and applying the scripture? And I’m sitt there going, “So, you’re saying the scripture by >> Is it going to change these people’s lives? You have to add your [laughter] >> Wait a minute.” >> Yeah. You’re teaching synergism, James >> Yes. [laughter] >> To argue against. >> Yeah. I I feel like that’s such an easy such an easy objection to make to somebody uh you know who’s a Protestant that’s holding the solid be like well you know do you believe that reading the Bible gives you grace do you believe that that strengthens your faith do you believe that that helps to keep you in the faith you know because if it does >> that’s something you do [laughter] >> that has yeah well and part of the problem with with soliday is the way they define fed days, right?

1:03:43 That’s uh that really that concept pist in in St. Paul is very clearly faithfulness. >> An idea more like faithfulness or loyalty or fidelity than uh believing that something is true, [laughter] >> Holding an opinion. >> Well, that’s that’s why heresy to to these people is uh just like having the wrong idea, you know. >> Right. Right. And that’s, you know, like, show me where in the Bible it says that the the last judgment is going to be a true false test, >> Right. Christ is the son of God. True or >> Yeah. [laughter] Yeah. Fill it fill in your spreadsheet and we’ll see how you did. Oh, you got to see. >> See you. >> I I ace the true or false test, so it doesn’t matter that I was an axe murderer.

1:04:32 Yeah. >> Yeah. Exactly. You’re you’re going to be sent you’re going to be sent to the the hell where almost everybody is just annihilated but only the orthodox will rot forever according to [laughter] >> I mean as St. James points out the devil and every demon in hell could pass the true false test >> right yes >> You basically just describing the faith of demons. Absolutely. >> Uh Paul asks is there a bigger defeater for Calvinism than communication of properties? Does this link to PSA? >> Um I I think there is a bigger defeater than that. Uh uh that is a good one. [laughter] Yes. Um yeah, the the the the fact that they don’t really believe in the communication of properties between Christ’s divine and human nature.

1:05:26 >> Which is what produces the extracalisticum the idea that there are places where Christ’s divine nature is and his human nature is not. >> Uh you end up h I mean you end up having to be a historian. Yes. >> And historian Christologology is how the Calvinists like and I’m talking about actual Cal like vermigi and stuff. Right. right? >> How the the Calvinists get around the problem of of PSA, >> right? Because they they don’t want to separate the first and second persons of the Trinity. So instead, they separate Christ’s divine and human natures. >> And that’s how they get around it, right? Um and so that lack of communication of properties is a huge is a huge defeater.

1:06:14 To me, the the bigger one the bigger one is that uh they require God to be bound by time. The entire Calvinist system requires God to essentially be on a parallel time track to the earth. Meaning they’re like inches from being open theists. >> right [laughter] >> definition like he has to be he just knows the future for them. That’s the only thing separating them from an open theist. It’s the same view of God. >> Just their god knows the future. >> Right. Right. >> But their god for their god there is a future right. God exists like at this point in time with us just like we do.

1:07:04 And there are things that haven’t happened yet for him [laughter] that he just knows about. >> Yeah. He just has a superpower >> right? And and yes, so this is pure anthropomorphism. This is pure >> But the place where this the reason this is a defeater, you’re like, well, why is that such a big problem instead of believing that God is outside of time is that uh this is why they are have a heretical doctrine of the holy trinity. >> And that’s why it’s a bigger defeater. Mhm. [clears throat] >> And what do I mean by that? Uh well, Calvin realized that uh if if God is on a time track like that, then you have a real problem with the eternal generation of the sun and the eternal procession of the Holy Because if he’s on a time track, that would have to happen at a point in time.

1:08:00 >> Right. which makes you an Aryan, >> right? Like that’s that’s the whole debate about Aryanism >> at the Council of Nika is did that happen at a point in time or was it eternal, meaning outside of time. So what Calvin does is he denies eternal Calvin teaches that the son is of toos, that he is just God in and of himself. that he has the divine essence not caused or from the father. He just possesses it the same way the father Same thing with the holy spirit. this causes a real problem with his doctrine of the trinity because now he essentially has three >> Right.

1:08:54 Yeah. But it creates this even worse problem because he didn’t start with the orthodox doctrine of the trinity. He started with Rome’s doctrine of the trinity. >> And then added this layer. So he has a a divine essence that stands behind the three persons as an entity. And now he has the three persons without monarchy of the father which creates this problem. And later Calvinists try to solve this. Right? So you’ve got this heretical doctor of the trinity and later Calvinist trying to solve. like Cornelius Vanel, uh, whose name you’ve probably heard from some of your favorite Orthodox apologists because he was a big name in presuppositional apologetics.

1:09:50 >> Right. But none of them like Jay does not endorse the rest of Vanel. >> Right. Right. Right. Yeah. We were talking about him on Rouslon when I was on that show back in the day. Ventil sees this problem. He says, ‘Well, we’ve got these three persons and then we’ve got this impersonal divine >> And so he says, “This is weird. How do we solve this problem?” So he just says, “The divine essence is also personal.” >> So he’s now got a fourth person. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> Right. Who gets referred to in later like so people like John Frame who I as a professor some of the other followers of Vantel, right? his immediate like disciples in the reformed world will talk about the person of quote unquote God in his >> So four so four persons in the trinity.

1:10:45 So they’ve got a a quadrat basically >> there is one person underlying the three That’s so strange. So >> And so I I don’t know how you can make that work other than maybe some form of >> right? Yeah. Well, you get you get into all sorts of issues even when you just accept PSA’s framework because as you were saying, it all it all starts with the neestoran presuppositions that end up feeding into the rest of your theology because you basically have to say the father damned the son, >> So, you know, there’s all sorts of issues with that statement. It ultimately leads into notorianism. I feel like that is a one of the best defeaters of the Calvinist framework.

1:11:31 And I won’t mention any names, but bigname Calvinists that I’ve worked with in the past have told me in private conversations that in some of the debates they’ve had when that’s brought up that they didn’t know how to respond to it. They still didn’t know how to after that. They said they said, “Do do you know a way to explain this like without this being netorian?” I’m like, >> “I I can’t help you, buddy.” you know. >> Said, “Nuhuh.” >> Yeah. [laughter] Exactly. >> We’re not. How dare you? How dare you, >> Yeah. Yeah. Exact. You or you orthodox is so mean. That’s the That’s the That’s the best rebuttal. So, uh here, let me let me jump into this because uh Octaven sent in a huge super chat. Thank you so much, Octavian.

1:12:17 I appreciate you. Um he says, “For father Stephen D Young’s session with voice of reason. He really wants you to call [laughter] in to set up that one-on-one session. That’d be funny. >> Would you >> Why are you the way you are? >> Well, you know, you could set up the session and then just try to try to convince him to become Orthodox, but then he’s also got to delete his YouTube channel and stuff, so that’s the caveat. >> I have a feeling it would just get rejected. Yeah. [laughter] Yeah. Probably. It probably will just get rejected. That would make that would make an interesting video, though. A live stream one-on-one private session. >> Why would you talk to me? >> Well, what you what you got to do what you got to do is uh this [laughter] is bad to say.

1:13:06 I don’t know if I should say it, but I’ll say it anyway. It’s not that bad. You go in there and you pretend just to be you have like a profile picture of like just some blonde lady and then when he gets in there, just you [laughter] >> get an AI filter. >> Yeah. Exactly. There you go. That’d be funny. Thanks, Octavian. I appreciate the big super chat. That’s awesome. All right, let’s see what other questions we have here. Father Bless, um, hoping you could give your understanding as a priest and what the Eastern Orthodox view of the Trinity is as monarch monarchical trinitarianism. Is this traditional standard? >> So, yes to that last part, >> Yeah. So, there’s I mean, it’s just like we say the creed. There’s one God, the uh from whom Christ is begotten eternally outside of time as we were just saying and from whom the holy spirit proceeds eternally outside of time and uh the three persons share one nature, one will and one energy, one activity in the And the worship of them is one because the son and the spirit are the image of the father and uh the honor given passes from the image to the prototype.

1:14:32 >> That’s what St. Basil the Great says. That’s where that distinction comes from of image to prototype. St. Basil uses that to explain why we have one worship of three persons. Uh that it passes to the father. Um, and the earliest place you see that is actually a late first or early 2nd century text uh that’s in my my book Apocrypha uh that I talk about the ascension of Isaiah uh actually has that trinitarian view in it that early. Um but uh yeah and this this is why for the right? You know, why are we so mean and say that people are anathema for denying that the honor given to the image passes to the prototype, >> Because if you deny that, you deny the and you deny the whole basis of Christian ethics.

1:15:27 >> Because the whole basis of Christian ethics, Christian morality as presented by the Bible, right? St. Matthew, what you did to the least of these, you did to me. Man is in the image of God. Right? And so, however you honor or dishonor your fellow human being, that passes to God, right? That is taught by the Bible. So if you deny that principle, even if you’re just denying it about iconography, if you deny that that principle is true, you are de facto denying the doctrine of the trinity as Christianity has understood it and you are denying I mean you’re rejecting >> humanity being in the image of God and how that relates to ethics.

1:16:17 I mean that’s really taught all the way back in Genesis 6. He who spillth man’s blood, his blood shall be spilled by man because in the image of God, God created man. >> Yeah. You’re also you’re also basically under under you’re >> undermining very fundamental arguments for the incarnation. Basically, you’re going to keep your keep your theology consistent, right? >> So, what are you what are you some kind of um uh what is it? A a dosist? Was that was that what it was that that believe that that uh >> rejects the material? Yeah. Or a gnostic. Yeah. >> Or an originist or something something bad. Right. >> Right. One of them one of them one of them tists out there. >> So So the people who do that, right, like Portland and stuff, they’re presenting it as, oh, whether or not you kiss a an icon, this is like a tertiary thing.

1:17:10 This is like >> this little fringe thing in in Christian. No, the principle is not. the principle is a core principle of Christianity that you’re denying. >> They just don’t understand Christian theology that well. >> Yeah. It’s like um again, you know, uh Gavin Gavin, if you’re watching this, I would love to have a private conversation with you about orthodoxy. Gavin Gavin’s a friend of mine. I don’t have anything against him. Um >> but personal. [laughter] >> Right. Right. Right. just the just differences in theology and teaching and truth ultimately in the faith. >> Um but I feel like people just they’re like, “Oh, they’re just like they’re this is the big deal.” Like, “Oh, they’re they’re sending you to hell over kisses.” Basically, that’s what they think.

1:17:56 It seems like >> Yeah. But so when I say they don’t understand Christian theology very well, here’s what here’s what I mean. It’s related to the solid thing, >> right? So I have no doubt that Orland is being completely genuine. And I refer to him by his last name because that’s how I refer to everybody. He’s not my >> Right. Right. >> Right. If someone’s my personal friend, right? If I have some relationship with them, I’ll call them by their first name. I don’t do that with people I don’t actually know. Right. I refer to them by their last name. >> Um so that’s not I’m not trying to disrespect him by referring to him as Orland or something. [laughter] That’s actually trying to be >> Mr. Orland is my father. Nothing. So, but so I I have no doubt that he’s completely sincere in affirming things like the doctrine of the trinity as he understands it, >> the dual [clears throat] nature of Christ as he understands it.

1:18:44 Right? But what I mean by not understanding Christian theology is that the sort of undergirling of that, the way those things relate to each other, right? the overall understanding out of of and and the way of reading the scriptures from which those doctrines >> they don’t understand, >> I mean, it’s good to affirm the correct doctrines, right? But it’s better, especially if you’re going to be a >> to delve deeper and kind of understand how these things relate to each other. >> Yep. So, I I I don’t think, in fact, I I would bet money that if someone walked up to Orland in person and said, “By by refusing to kiss an icon, you’re rejecting the doctrine of the Trinity and all of Christian ethics,” he would look at you like you were insane.

1:19:39 >> Right. Right. Yeah. >> Right. You would have to take him through, [laughter] right? And explain >> You’d almost have to ask the under like the underpinning question. You’d have to ask a question about the ethics, a question about the trinity without mentioning how it ties into icon icon veneration and then >> get them to admit that and then bring up how that ties into >> why doesn’t it apply over here also? >> correct. Yes. Yes. Absolutely. question. I’m a catacuman and author from Canada. Evangeline press. My novel character Eve is a Jewish American convert from atheism to Orthodoxy. Do you know any similar stories? She is a former Marxist.

1:20:28 Do I know any former Marxist Jews who have converted to Orthodoxy? I don’t think so. on the political thing. I mean, there are folks out there who are Jewish people who converted to >> Yeah. [laughter] Yeah. There lots of there’s lots of Jewish people. >> Yeah, you could find those, but I I don’t know of any who were actual >> Well, I mean, plenty of them were Democrats, but I mean, if you wanted actual [laughter] like Marxist >> Yeah. Well, if you just want if you just want Jews Jews that became Orthodox, I mean, just look at like uh Peter, Paul. >> Yeah. [laughter] But I mean >> there were atheists but you know >> I’m thinking of modern ones.

1:21:17 I know some pro and and most of them were not very religious. It’s actually harder to find somebody who was like a super religious Jew who sort of deeply in you know like a hidic community who became an Orthodox Christian. That’s much harder to find than a kind of secular Jew who >> who converted. But I don’t know of any who were that extreme in their political views like libs. Sure. But Um, yeah. >> I’m uh I’m trying to find the name of this book. My priest recommends it. It’s by a >> Father James Bernstein’s book. >> Yes. What’s that? What’s the title of that book? >> Surprised by Christ. >> Yes. There you go. That would be that would be a good example of a more um Jewish convert to Orthodox.

1:22:06 >> Yeah. He was sort of a secular came from a secular Jewish family, became Orthodox, ended up becoming a priest. >> Yep. So check out check out that book if you want to learn more about that. Um, father, can you give a brief uh brief overview of the orthodoxy or not of father John? How do you how do you how do you say that? [laughter] I can’t pronounce >> I could try. I’ll probably butcher it. >> Zulus. Yeah. >> Yeah. There you go. >> You gota work on those Greek names. It’s gonna get you in trouble. >> Yeah, exactly. I need to Well, see that’s that’s the problem. I pronounce all this stuff wrong. That’s like when I had my conversation with uh Jay back in the day. I saidchedon. And he said, “It’s it’s not chals, it’s calcedon.” You like, “Okay.” Well, I >> “Oh, yeah.

1:22:53 Wait till you use a raspian pronunciation of some uh Greek word, some Greek theological word.” Like the Greeks go crazy. >> Yeah. Nice. Uh so a a brief overview of the orthodoxy of this guy and if their view of scripture ought to be read with some skepticism. how mean do I want to be? Zazulus is uh uh Father John is um my brother priest. He’s Orthodox priest in good standing.

1:23:39 Uh we have some about the interpretation of scripture. I I think his stuff is overly colored by things going on in late 20th century European academia. >> Let the listener understand. >> There you go. >> Uh in general, uh this will be a less guarded statement. Uh in general, Greeks, especially in Europe, have a really horrible case of little brother uh syndrome >> uh toward Roman Catholic scholars, >> Greek scholars in Europe.

1:24:26 And so there’s a lot of sort of, hey big bro, I’m one of the I’m one of the cool guys, right? you know, like looking for approval and you know, I get to come sit with you at the big kids table, right? Um, that happens a lot. That also happens in the US at places like Forom. even less >> places like Florida. Lord have mercy. >> Not for long. Vote uh vote for Fishback. He’ll [laughter] >> He’ll fix it all though. >> No, but uh Yeah. Forom. Yeah. So that’s uh yeah that’s a that’s a thing that happens in in in in AC in academia.

1:25:13 >> So you have to separate right um and also also do I do have to say this. So as somebody who’s had his his foot in both worlds when you’re doing academic writing especially academic writing for publication and academic secular academic sources. You have to write in ways and use phrases and you have to present everything in a certain way. Right. >> Right. To have any hope of it being published, getting an audience, right? That kind of thing. If you’re working at an institution that’s not an orthodox institution, and there are relatively few Orthodox academic institutions, you’ve got to go by the institutional standards.

1:26:02 And so I want to be fair um in that respect also, right? That some of that like if you read um one of one of my recent master’s thesis, I had to keep using the phrase uh biologically female organisms. >> Because I was in an academic context where I couldn’t just say women. >> Yeah. Listen, you could call me a little bit of an ac of an academic myself. I say Skittles instead of [laughter] Yeah. So, you have to kind of play the >> And dance around a little bit. So, like if that thesis got published and somebody read it and didn’t know anything about me, they might What’s this weird lib talking about biologically female organisms, right?

1:26:53 You can’t just say women. Was this some trans stuff? You know? >> Yeah. Yeah. >> Um and it’s not. It’s just you have to jump through the hoops and kind of play the game a little bit, >> right? Yeah, absolutely. Uh $5 for your Roane fund. Nice. Thanks. I appreciate it. You know, I won’t I don’t want to use any of them creams because they sap your testosterone. >> I do not want that. You You’ll have me coming on to the show talking in a high-pitched voice. You don’t want I’ll have a nice full head of hair, but I’ll be I’ll be talking like this. You don’t want that at all. >> He’s not just a president. He’s also a >> Yeah. [laughter] >> Are you old enough to remember those >> Uhuh. No. No. What’s that? >> Oh, there was this thing called the Hair Club for Men. >> That was They were selling all kinds of stuff.

1:27:42 Roane plugs, the whole shebang. But they had this commercial where they had the guy who started it. >> Right. And he’d be sort of showing off his hair, right? And he’d be like, “I’m not just the president. I’m also a >> Nice. Right. [laughter] Uh he says, “Looking forward to your atonement book, uh father, the cryptocalvinist must be shamed into >> So a little a little teaser for that. The way it’s structured, it’s in two The first part is going to be laying out like the orthodox view from scripture and and the fathers. And then the second part is going to be a genealogy of atonement theorizing in the west. that’s going to start in late antiquity and go through to Hegel.

1:28:30 So, you can stop reading if you don’t want to know about Hegel, but just skip to the conclusion. But the Hegel part’s going to be interesting. So, >> there you go. You don’t want to uh you don’t want to read about that. Skip skip skip ahead. Is that is that your [laughter] your official >> Yeah. I don’t lose any royalties if you skip the Hegel chapter. So, [laughter] >> there there you go. Nice. Um, question. What’s the main difference between how the Orthodox and the Heterodox understand the book of It’s kind of broad, but I think maybe he’s talking about the Skittles part. >> Well, it could be. Yeah. Um, yeah. Interestingly, even like reformed Judaism, uh, Leviticus 18 was the read was part of the reading cycle of the Torah and, uh, got removed in reformed >> because it’s too politically incorrect.

1:29:27 >> Um, yeah. So, I mean, pretty much the whole book of Leviticus is written off as being ceremonial law by most Protestant groups. Mhm. the uh um the only part that if you’re talking about conservative like evangelicals and conservative Protestants, the only part they think still applies is Leviticus 18 about sexual morality. [laughter] The only part they’re gonna quote and >> and the verse that says love your >> neighbor call in mana. >> Yeah.

1:30:13 the verse that says love your neighbor as yourself. That’s it. The rest of it, right? Um but interestingly, even Rome, even Rome has completely marginalized it. Um the point that a very common like around the time of of Leon and Florence, a very common argument that they used against the East was that they would call us Judaizers >> because we still had u we preserve the concept of clean and unclean. So we have things like the churching of mother and child after 40 days >> which they had already gotten rid of. Um so there were several things like that that we had continued to do from the holiness code from Leviticus that even Rome had kind of rejected even though Rome is more willing to talk about the continuity between the Eucharist and the sacrificial system for example.

1:31:07 Right. >> And Protestants are most Protestants. Joe Joe Heshmire mentioned Joe Heshmire’s video mentioned. [laughter] >> he talks about that quite a bit. That was like his claim to fame was the uh that Eucharistic um continuity argument. >> All right. Um how do we approach family and friends who aren’t Orthodox? Tell them to become Orthodox. We feel frozen but are legitimately scared for them. Well, if you just want to tell them to become Orthodox, you just say become >> Yeah. [laughter] But if you want them to actually become Orthodox, that’s a little different. >> Uh you live an Orthodox Christian life in front of them [clears throat] >> so they learn what Orthodoxy is and they see Christ in the Orthodox church. >> That’s honestly how you do it.

1:31:57 But also, you you shouldn’t be scared for them. We we don’t actually believe that everyone outside the Orthodox Church goes to I know a whole bunch of people have told you that including Ortland but that’s not actually what we believe [laughter] right uh extra ecclesium noisalis right outside the church there is no salvation is a parallel statement to what Christ says to St. Foutini the Samaritan woman when he says salvation is from the Jews or of the Jews right it means that the church is the vehicle through which Christ is saving that doesn’t mean there’s an iron wall where everyone inside the wall goes quote unquote goes to heaven [laughter] right and everyone outside of the wall goes to eternal torment just like in the Old Testament you could tell who was an Israelite and who wasn’t.

1:32:56 Right? Israel was a visible thing. You were part of it or you >> But if you read the Old Testament pretty closely, you will see that there were people who were not Israelites, who were not condemned to hell, right? right? And there were Israelites who were [laughter] like there Israelites who went the wrong way, right? So that’s not that’s not the dividing line. Now, now I’m just saying don’t be afraid. I’m not saying go try and get them to become Orthodox, right? throughout the Old Testament, if someone is looking for salvation, where are they directed? They’re directed to Israel because that’s where God is working in the world. >> So, the place where God is working in the world is the Orthodox Church.

1:33:48 So, anyone seeking salvation needs to come into the Orthodox church, >> right? Yeah. I feel like um I feel like quite often uh people discuss the extraormative means as if they’re more common than they actually are. You know what I mean? I think we were just talking about the talking about this in >> right like like the like Protestants will take thief on the cross and say, “Well, that’s for everybody. You don’t need to do anything.” Like thief on the cross, that’s that’s norm. And they don’t, you know, don’t even think, you know, the the tradition behind it as well. Um but they’ll say oh you know that that makes the rule or something along those lines. I think it is also important to note uh and correct me if I say anything out of line here but >> uh the sacraments are present within the Orthodox church.

1:34:35 The the scripture says John 6 uh 50-60 uh that it is necessary to participate in the Eucharist says this is my flesh and my uh my body and my blood. If you do not participate in my body and blood you have no life in >> Yeah. uh you uh and he makes promises. He says, “I will abide in you. You will abide in me.” The church is the hospital for sinners. If we have a terminal illness, right, we want to go into the hospital. We don’t want to if we have a life-threatening illness, we want to go into the hospital, right? We don’t want to like lay on the florest floor and hope that we’re going to be healed. So, >> So, that’s all all absolutely correct. >> Right. This is the place. And if it’s offered to you and you reject it, you’re in serious danger, [laughter] right, of your soul, right?

1:35:22 But that also doesn’t mean like the guy who lives and dies his whole life without a hospital within a thousand miles, [laughter] right? It doesn’t mean that the first time he gets sick or injured, he’s going to die, right? Like the the you know, we’re not saying dogmatically that that person went to hell, >> right? We don’t dogmatically say anyone went to hell except Judas and Aras. Uh those only two people which the church has dogmatically said went to hell. Um and if you’ve if you’ve ever heard the siticarian in Mattens, it’s kind of amazing about the death of >> because it goes into some great detail about how he bled to death in a public >> And how fitting that was as a way for him to go, [laughter] right?

1:36:09 So, I mean like it’s like heaps upon but unless you’re Aras or Judas, um we’re not saying you went to hell. So, the key thing is live an Orthodox Christian life in front of them. Pray for them. If they die outside the church, keep praying for them, right? Uh those are the things you could do. My concern is about that I’m afraid for them. And my concern about that is I don’t want that to color how you seek >> God is not in the business of trying to send people to hell. Right? Christ didn’t come into the world to condemn the world. Right? Christ is on our side. Christ wants all men to be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth.

1:36:56 Okay? So that’s what God wants. Hopefully, you can be the vehicle through which your family is saved and comes to the knowledge of the truth because that’s going to happen in the Orthodox church. >> My agnostic friend asked me if there is a hierarchy for us in the heavenly kingdom resurrection. Is there a >> Well, it depends on what you mean by hierarch hierarchy. [laughter] um in the sense that I mean obviously uh life of the world to come is not going to be a democracy right like it’s a kingdom right so if we’re talking about God yes there’s a def hierarchy between God and humans uh there’s also a hierarchy in the sense that there because we God is infinite we’re able to in the image and likeness of God Right?

1:37:54 This isn’t like, oh, hey, we achieved it, >> you know, theosis 100%. >> Um, so there are going to be people who >> even in the life of the world to come are going to be further advanced. Pretty much everybody’s going to be more further advanced than me if I make it Um, right? Like there are going to be people right now, if you’re talking about hierarchy in the sense of like, you know, the rulers of the Gentiles lorded over them, you know, there’s going to be, you know, you’re going to have a boss who’s going to tell you what to do. [laughter] >> Middle management, I’m going to be the janitor, you know. >> There’s not going to be that kind of hierarchy, right? [laughter] >> Yeah. If I if I uh if I make it in, I’m I’m I’m going to be the janitor. My uh my room in the mansion will be the the >> That’s it.

1:38:41 I mean, better better to be a slave in the courts of the Lord than >> that’s right. There you go. Uh, father, what do we make of St. Jerome seemingly apply a twofold church with deacons and presporters and only later it becomes three? Is he wrong or >> uh St. Jerome was living in the fifth >> Yeah. where there were bishops and priests and deacons and had been for a couple hundred years everywhere. so I don’t I don’t know what you’re >> Yeah. Well, >> you call for the abolition of the episcopate ever. Uh, >> are maybe you’re talking about some particular interpretation in terms of in the New Testament >> there were presptors and deacons. >> I think that is what he’s saying.

1:39:27 I I think he’s saying that Jerome said that it was a development or something that it wasn’t uh because Gavin Gavin makes this claim. >> Yeah, you you made you made my um my brain which is typically just like monk a monkey clinging symbols actually start working again. Yeah. Navin makes this argument that um Jerome claims that uh the bishop brick is not apostolic tradition that it is somehow um a development or something. Uh other people argue that’s not actually what Jerome is saying though, >> right? And I don’t think that’s what Jerome is saying. But the case of the matter in the New Testament is and and Wes Huff doesn’t get this at all.

1:40:13 Wes Huff made a post about that >> in [clears throat] the last few weeks like, “Oh, it’s just clear in the New Testament that there’s only two offices.” I’m like, “Argue with Anglicans, Presbyterians, who are three office Presbyterians, Dutch reformed. Argue with your fellow Protestants about how clear that is, >> right? [laughter] >> That’s Lutherans have bishops.” Um, except in the US, which is weird. But um the uh but what’s happening in the New Testament is the church is being established. So there are three offices in the New Testament. Apostle, and deacon. Well, we don’t believe that the apostles appointed more apostles as their >> but they did appoint successors like St.

1:41:03 Paul appointing St. Timothy and St. right? And what the church came to call those successors who had the power to appoint prespitters and deacons was episcopos which is a very literal uh Greek rendering taken from the Greek Old Testament translating uh raim which was a a word for herdsman in Hebrew. somebody watches over flocks and herds, right? So several times where you read like shepherds of Israel to talk about the the leaders of Israel in the Old Testament, the word there in Greek is >> right?

1:41:55 Or episcopy in the plural. And so that is the term. And that the idea that it was herdsman or shepherd is why they started calling them pastor in Latin. The Latin word pastor means shepherd. And the reformers themselves, right? This is Calvin. Well, Calvin had four offices. He had doctor of the church as an office. But like Calvin has minister of the word like pastor, prespitter, deacon, right? That’s I am a prespitter in Greek. for most of church history, uh, no one read, uh, the the New Testament in the very obvious way Wes Huff reads it.

1:42:49 >> That’s just super totally clear, >> right? That’s including the early Protestant reformers. >> Yes. And um I think it’s pretty clear when you read church history that they did um mention the three offices as well. I mean you read Ignatius’s letters, he mentions them explicitly. Uh this is why James White had to like kind of make the argument some of those. He’s like Ignatius didn’t exist is what he said. But what he actually meant was >> they had to back crazy. >> Yeah. Yeah. That that went all over the internet. What [laughter] he actually meant though was he was he was trying to argue some of the letters were fake or >> There are some fake letters but not the ones that pertain to this. Yeah. >> Yes. Correct. Correct. Absolutely. Yeah. But um you you kind of have to try to you have to deny certain parts of the church fathers uh in order to make that you basically have to deny the consensus of the fathers and you’re leaning on one interpretation of one passage of Jerome >> basically what at that point would have been about 400 years church history.

1:43:49 Uh >> yeah but even Jerome >> say was illegitimate. >> Correct. Yes. >> Right. Even even if you were to take that interpretation, but that’s that’s >> Yeah. The other problem with that, I love St. Jerome. I have an icon of St. in my office >> at my parish. Okay. So, I’m not doubting St. Jerome, but St. Jerome gives minority views on all kinds of crazy >> If you read St. Jerome, >> he has all kinds of weird things. And so, if you want to take him as an authority on this, then you need to take things like uh St. Matthew’s gospel wasn’t written by the apostle Levi. It was written by St. Matias who was picked to replace Judas in Acts. >> You pick and choose that too.

1:44:39 >> Yes. That that St. James the son of Alphus the Apostle was actually St. James the brother of the Lord. Those are the same person. >> Okay. I mean I could go on and on. There are tons of these things that St. only St. Jerome has. Some of those have been enshrined in Roman Catholicism. >> Because they come from St. Jerome. But no other father, no other early source has any of this stuff. >> I will say this, one of my favorite paintings in the entire world has St. Jerome in it. It’s uh it’s >> ones. No, it’s a it’s a weird one where they they tried to paint I forget the exact I forget the cardinal, but they painted a cardinal as Jerome and he’s in the office with the lions and it just the animals all look really strange, but I just like the way it looks.

1:45:28 >> I I I was like, “Oh man, that would be a good office painting to have.” It’s at the I’ve only ever seen it in a museum. It was at the uh Ringling Museum in Sarasota. He had a um when he lived in in a cave uh as a monastic, he had a pet Palestinian lion. That’s where that comes from. >> Palestinian lions are now extinct. They were about the size of like a golden >> They [clears throat] were lions, but they were about that size. So, they’re a little smaller. That’s one who lived in the cave with >> Interesting. Huh. Yeah, because it does it does kind of just look like a dog lion. So maybe that’s just legitimately how it looked. [laughter] >> Wow. That that honestly makes me like the uh like the painting more.

1:46:16 Uh >> Yeah. So my icon of him has the lion in >> Like it’s I think it’s licking one of its paws in the picture. >> Yeah. Well, it’s um this is a very unique painting because it has Jerome looking like how he never looked ever because it’s a it is a specific guy who >> paid an artist to paint him as Jerome >> So, you know, maybe not the most theologically sound in that regard, but >> but you know, it’s an interesting painting. Well, Carvajio caused big waves because he would get like homeless people off the street and stuff to pose as the apostles >> and paint them. And this caused a big flap like, “Oh, how dare you these common people. You need to, you know, the apostles need to be depicted as regal and you know, [laughter] >> It was like, “Well, you know, he’s not doing icons.

1:47:10 He’s just doing paintings.” >> yeah. [laughter] Yeah. There you go. There you go. That’s a good distinction to make, I think. >> Uh, is there a major error in how Latins read the Old Testament? Well, we’re just talking about that, but we can touch on that again. >> The short answer is yes. >> There you go. Easy. >> The long answer is yeah. so, um, yeah, the the I mean, it’s hard to generalize about now, right? So, I mean, modern Roman Catholic biblical scholars are all in with whatever the current modern trend is, frankly.

1:47:57 Um, so Matthew Thomas, whose dissertation I referenced earlier, is on board with a bunch of good trends in New Testament scholarship. [laughter] So, he’s Roman Catholic, right? But, um, so that’s a good thing. But a lot of them that you read, especially from the 20th century, it’s a lot of the liberal Protestant and neoorthodox Protestant stuff just from a Roman Catholic perspective. Um, or sometimes if you get the conservatives, they’re kind of So, for example, uh, Rudolph Boltman argued that, uh, the Gospel of John was written by a Gnostic community that didn’t have any sacraments. >> which considering things like John 6 is amazing, right?

1:48:47 But [laughter] but he being a Protestant already had all the Protestant arguments that John 6 isn’t about the Eucharist, that he basically just pared, right? Um so uh in responding to that when Robert Brown who is a major Roman Catholic biblical scholar and on the whole a very good Roman Catholic biblical scholar um in terms of his scholarship um when he wrote his he argued that all seven Roman Catholic sacraments are in St. John’s gospel like he took the opposite extreme. >> So like his argument that there’s last >> is special pleading like crazy, right?

1:49:33 But um so he takes the opposite the opposite. So you get some of that too. You get some reactive Roman Catholic stuff. Um but uh in general in general uh the West tended to like I just mentioned with Leon and Florence. Yeah. uh they thought that the Orthodox Church by that point was keeping too much uh from the Old Testament. Um and part of that is I mean we’re getting into really techn Yeah. I mean this is this is deeper stuff but they evolved the concept of temporal guilt. So if you know anything about the concept of temporal guilt in Latin >> that took the pla that replaced the sort of metaphysics of sin that you find in the scriptures and in the east, right?

1:50:33 So rather than sin leaving a kind of taint or spore on the world that needed to be cleansed, the problem is a kind of guilt. Yeah. >> That guilt is ameliorated by suffering. >> Right. And so eternal guilt is eliminated by Christ suffering as long as you’re in a state of grace for them. But temporal guilt needs to be dealt with by your own suffering. And they’ll proof text that to things like St. Paul talking about making up what is lacking in the sufferings of Christ in his own sufferings. That’s where they’ll proof text that. Um, and so the idea of temporal guilt, this is why they have their penitential system, this is why in the medieval period, their penitential system becomes incredibly brutal, especially in like Celtic areas like Ireland, you know, where people are flagagillating themselves and drawing blood and scraping all the skin off their knees, crawling upstairs, and right like you have to inflict pain on yourself to make up for that temporal guilt.

1:51:36 Whatever’s left when you die, you suffer in purgatory, right? to to purify the last bit of that temporal guilt. >> Um, and so that replaces our >> Our understanding [clears throat] that we hold over from scriptures, including the Old Testament, is that there’s that taint or spore on the material world, including our bodies and our souls, that’s left by as an effect of sin, right? that we are then purified from, right, through the process of repentance, which is making amends, the amendment of our way of life, right, and those kind of things. Um, not directly related to suffering and pain, per se. Um, and so that that’s what’s behind them calling us Judaizers and us just looking at them like they’re >> uh masochist masochistic wackos.

1:52:33 Um, >> yeah, it um it kind of becomes more transactional in their view. Uh, it’s like you you just have to constantly rebalance the scales or something, which is kind of a hold over from some pagan >> uh practices. It seems like it’s it’s a it is a bastardization of what the actual teaching is, which is what you just said. It leaves behind uh a corruption that needs to be healed. That’s the whole purpose. It’s theosis. It’s healing. It’s >> uh healing um uh nature, soul, so on and so forth. I mean, that’s the entire purpose. It’s not like well I have temporal guilt so I need to inflict temporal pain [laughter] >> you know like okay or or you know uh just you know pay pay some money and then you know >> yeah but you look at things like scapulars and stuff where it’s just like you know >> I’m just wear something that irritates my leg >> uh that’s going to make up for the fact that I told lies >> you know right there sort of a it’s a transactional thing but also like grace like created grace, guilt becomes this quantifiable thing.

1:53:43 >> Mhm. [clears throat] >> And this is what then leads to modern among other things, right? Because they say, well, wait a minute, guilt is quantifiable and therefore eternal for temporal guilt doesn’t make sense to them because there’s a difference in >> Yeah. And so you get purgatorial hell or you get, you know, you suffer for a little while and then you’re annihilated, which seems to be what Kirk Cameron thinks, which we should all be super concerned about, right? Because >> you know, he was on a sitcom in the 80s. Clearly, he knows about these things. Like Scott Beao needs to weigh in on the doctrine of the trinity and then we’ll know the truth, right? >> There you go. [laughter] >> Right.

1:54:29 But the the you get all those views because there is this idea that guilt is somehow this quantifiable thing that suffering takes care of. >> I mean it’s also kind of the basis of the penal system in this country if you think about you have a >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. >> Where you go and then it’s like oh you spent a certain number of years there proportional to your crime and now you’ve paid your debt. You’re good. >> like you’ve suffered enough. >> Um, yeah. So, >> yeah, I Yeah, I agree. It it causes a lot of issues downstream. What you um I mean, what really what you believe has tons and tons and tons of effects on practice as well.

1:55:19 I mean, it’s it is ridiculous the amount of downstream effects. uh faulty kind of western theology has led us into that we still see today. We see the ramifications of faulty theology today is very very interesting to to get into. Um do you have a do you have a hard stop because I have a lot of questions in >> I do I do not. So whatever you need to tap out we’ll tap out. >> Okay. So anything that we can answer quick? Let’s uh let’s let’s kind of get through a little quick because I’ve got 27. I’ll try to do speed round. I’ll try to do speed. >> So, so do me a favor, chat. Don’t send in more questions to the super chat thing. I don’t want to feel bad for skipping over.

1:56:05 >> Play the doctor the trinity again. Yeah. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So, if you send in a super chat, it’ll be to support the show, but we’re gonna we’re going to halt questions at what we have here because we have 27 to get through. So, I don’t want to I don’t want to be here, you know. >> We’ll try to ramble less. We’ll try to knock these out. There was one that a guy in the chat mentioned. I did want to get to him because he had said something about his experience as a as an inquirer. He was a Messianic Jew. I’m trying to find his comment. Okay, here you go. He was he was a Messianic Jew that’s uh become an inquirer in the Orthodox church. And he says this, “Is it me or is the Orthodox Church bad at outreach to inquirers? I’m pretty darn outgoing, but I’ve yet to have anyone except the priest make an effort to get to know me after two months.

1:56:56 So, he’s been an inquirer for two months. >> And he’s been going and he feels like he’s not getting to know anyone. Well, if you if you don’t mind, I I just want to I want to say something really quick to this guy. >> Uh first off, if you’re having issues making friends that are Orthodox, >> yeah, my email, it’s right there in the description. I, you know, I was a uh I was a pastor and now I just do YouTube stuff. I have way too much free time on my hands. I’m bored. Reach out to me. I will be your friend. I don’t care. You know, I’m not I’m not that I’m not that hard to get a hold of. But also, >> this man is sad and lonely. He needs >> I need you to reach out to me. Please. That’s funny. Um, one thing that’s helpful for me because, you know, I I um when I was when I was a Protestant pastor, obviously I had a lot of people at the local church that obviously, you know, knew me.

1:57:47 We we were involved in people’s lives and we were involved in each other’s lives and, you know, it was a good community, great people, things like that. Um, but we also had a men’s fellowship program that we did every Tuesday and I would get, you know, to know people. we would chat and, you know, kind of get to know people more than on uh Sunday at my current church. We do one once a month, which is very, very solid. So, you can ask if there’s something like that in your church. But if there’s not, what I would recommend to you is do what I did when I first started going to an Orthodox church for the first time. Stay after for coffee hour and make it your mission to literally go and get people’s numbers. Let them know that you’re new. say, “Look, like, hey, I’m new. You’ve been coming here for a long time, you know, uh, you mind if I like ask you questions or whatever, you know, yada yada.

1:58:37 Make some friends.” That’s got to be the goal. You have to be kind of proactive um in in some of that. And you will benefit exponentially. And I’ve made um I’ve made great friendships uh just doing that. So, I hope that’s helpful. Uh but do you have any advice? >> Well, yeah. And if you’re not I mean if you’re not quite that outgoing you could just say hey you mind if I sit here [laughter] right and sit at a different table with people at it right eventually people it’ll get awkward so people try to loop you into the conversation right u but yeah I mean different different parishes are different in that regard >> right like in uh if you show up at my parish there’s going to be like eight people descending upon you like like immediately, right?

1:59:27 Like um in fact, it might go for some people, I think it goes too far the other way. >> Like I try to stay back a little bit at my parish because I have so many people who I know are going to sort of on anybody new who shows up and I don’t want to like completely, you know, I just wanted to come see what it was about. I didn’t want, you know, >> that’s me. That’s actually me. >> Yeah. Like let me let me in the back for a couple weeks. Okay. Um but uh yeah, some different parishes and some parishes are very ethnic and it’s not that they’re not welcoming. See, people tend to vilify those ethnic people. A lot of it is they sort of don’t know how to talk to >> Right. They they’ve sort of all known each other for years or they’re from the same ethnic background.

2:00:16 So there’s things that they talk about and they’re they’re not going to know about XY like like they don’t know. So yeah, it it’s not that they’re trying to be off-putting to you or unwelcoming to you. It’s just they may not even know what to talk about with you, >> you know, how how about them saints, you know, like >> Yeah. [laughter] Yeah. >> Like they don’t know what >> they don’t know what to say. So I mean worst case scenario like worst case scenario if you find it kind of impenetrable Lord bu willing some other inquirers and catechumans will start to show up and you could just kind of get to know each other right and sort of form your own kind of group with the priest right as you’re coming into the church and then take this experience and let it inform you.

2:01:04 >> Yes. So that when you see new people later on, you go and you you be sure to be the one who welcomes them. >> Absolutely. Yep. Great advice. Uh Father Timothy asks, “If the Torah still applies, how shall we answer snarky folk who bring up stoning witches or other such examples?” >> You should stone them. >> Yeah, there you go. No. [laughter] So there’s a there’s a section in the last chapter of religion of the apostles where I talk about this. Uh the death penalties are still in effect. It’s called excommunication. >> So the language that’s actually used in the Old Testament for that is that and there’s a lot of places where we’re not sure if it’s talking about executing them or exiling them because it just says like they’re to be cut off from among the people.

2:01:53 Mhm. [clears throat] And the reason for that is that death and exile were seen in the ancient world as basically the same thing, right? Think about Socrates choosing to drink hemlock rather than be exiled from Athens, right? Um so those were the same thing being cut off from among the people. And as St. John tells us, there’s there’s two kinds of death. There’s physical death and spiritual death. Physical death is the separation of the soul from the body. Spiritual death is the separation of the soul from God. Spiritual death is the real death. Spiritual death is what happens to Adam on the day he sins. And spiritual death then produces physical death, results in physical death.

2:02:40 So when someone is cut off from the Eucharist, they’re cut off from the tree of life the same way Adam was, right? They’re they’re exiled from the church. They’re cut off from the source of life. So excommunication in our practice is so we do still follow that if someone is practicing witchcraft in the church, they are excommunicated. >> They are cut off from the church. Now to do that, you have to have a church that has visible borders. The whole Bible talks about putting people out of the church. This is one of the marks of the true church according to John Calvin. No evangelical church has this mark of the true church.

2:03:29 No evangelical church is actually capable of putting someone outside the church because of their definition of the church. They can put somebody out of the local church body, but they can’t put them out of the church, right? which is what which is what St. Paul for example says to do. But that’s the continuity of >> Great question. My friend exploring Eastern Orthodoxy has a son with his lady and plans to marry her. She isn’t as interested in orthodoxy as him. Should he marry her civily now than remarry later sacramentally later if they convert? they should marry her civily >> And then once once Lord willing she’s ready to come into the church, there is a service for blessing a marriage >> in the church.

2:04:30 Uh and you can you can do that then. But um bluntly, you’re going to have a hard time getting received into the church living with a woman who has your child who you’re not married to. >> So get civily married. Correct that as much as you can now. Right? That’s as much correction as you could do right now because you can’t get married in the church right now because you’re not Orthodox, right? And neither is she, right? And then by the grace of God, Lord willing, later on you’ll be able to sort of more fully correct that. >> Um, I’m having trouble being Oh, wait.

2:05:16 Am I having trouble understanding being a lifelong monk? I guess the concept are we not called to go out into the world and be a light? >> Um, you could be a light without going out. >> So, uh, into the world, um, not lights going out. That’s why I corrected that. when you look at, for example, St. Saraphim of Serv, right? He went by himself as a hermit, right, into the wilderness, spent a 100 days on his knees on a rock. You can read the whole life of St. Seraf. There came to be a certain point where uh having drawn close to God to a certain degree, having received from God, he opened the doors of his cell and people made pilgrimage to him, >> came to him to ask him questions, ask him advice, ask him right uh for guidance, right?

2:06:19 Um and so that that shift happened, right? It’s a firm principle of Christianity. You have to receive before you can give to someone else, right? And so this is true with monastics also. This is why monasteries, people go on pilgrimages and retreats at monasteries. People who are not monastics go and stay at monasteries. Uh people have spiritual fathers who are Right? So they are serving as a light to the world. >> Right. Just without going out. And I mean if you think about it, that’s the way Israel was called to be a light to the world. The Israelites were never called to go out to all the nations and try and right.

2:07:05 But they were called to live their lives in a certain place in a certain way to be seen by the world. And all monastics are doing that, right? Right? They’re living their life in community in a certain way to be seen by the world. But there is a point in this isn’t noviceses, right? You become a novice, you have to receive first. But people who have reached a certain point in the monastic life begin to receive visitors and and right people make pilgrimages to Mount Aos. So we don’t have the kind of the way Roman Catholic cloistered monasteries work. >> Where they literally don’t see anybody, >> right? [laughter] >> And literally, right, are just completely cut off, right? We don’t have except for the case of like noviceses and stuff who are still in the receiving, right?

2:07:58 We’re still in the sort of repenting phase, cutting ties to the world and those kind of things in terms of their own repentance. Um there’s a period of that and then having received then you’re able to give. >> Yeah. That concept of not being able to give what you haven’t received was a huge pebble in my shoe when I was a Protestant pastor. Especially when it came to ordination, you know what I >> So I’m like I’m like, “Wait a minute. If we don’t track apostolic succession, how do I know I’ve received anything?” [laughter] So it’s like, “Wait a minute. There’s something not quite fitting here.” So >> yeah, you just kind of get hired, you know, [laughter] >> because they have a ceremony. >> Exactly. Well, >> it’s like a new hire ceremony, you know. >> What is the laying on of hands actually giving if if you don’t, you know, because it says do not neglect uh you know, the scripture says do not neglect the gift that you’ve been given by the laying on of hands.

2:08:46 And so it’s like, okay, so what’s being given if you don’t have anything to begin with? Uh who’d you get it from? You know, >> oh that’s being passed. Yeah. >> Yeah. I well, you know, I paid a seminary like uh quote unquote seminary. I paid a seminary, you know, $700 a class for, you know, x amount of years, so I should be good. You know, they sent me a letter saying I’m ordained, you know, whatever. >> That’s not my situation. But >> my my Westminster diploma, right, my MD diploma, right, the physical diploma is all in Latin. >> Yeah. Uh but it says and dozens of well-known Calvinists including people like Mike Horton >> signed off on this saying that I am a man blameless in life and educated in the humanities.

2:09:36 >> So even Calvinists think my life is blameless or at that time at least >> All right, Mike Horton. There you go. >> Yeah. in in Koopa >> in Latin. >> Geralt says, “Off to bed. Pray for me in the unit. Got to keep you safe.” Thanks, man. Yeah, I will. I’ll keep you in the prayers, dude. Good to see you, man. >> Pray that uh well, pray that pray that Geralt is safe, but also pray that it becomes Orthodox. There you go. >> can Witcher become Orthodox or is that a different Geralt? >> Geralt is He’s a Lutheran. He’s LCMS. >> I was just making a Witcher I was just making a Witcher joke. Oh, okay. Okay. G. Yeah, Geralt the Rivia. [laughter] Nice. Nice. Oh. Uh, because I can’t gift memberships on iPhone.

2:10:23 $50. Thank you so much, Octavian. You’re the man. We love Octavian. Let me get a W Octavian in the chat. Everybody spam W. Octavian. It’s the man. He’s always coming in clutch on these live streams. We appreciate it. Here’s a good question. Let Ed be Ed. When Patriarch Bartholomew uh cut the cut the cake this year, the first knife broke, the second one bent. The patriarch said it was a bad omen. Curious your thoughts. [laughter] >> Wow. I Yeah, Divine Judgment by Vaselopea. Uh yeah, I mean I assume he was probably he was probably joking. Although I do know some Greek people who they’re not superstitious, they’re just a little bit stitious.

2:11:09 Um >> Um so uh my wife makes really good vessel when she makes it uh for Basil say um yeah I don’t know. We’ll we’ll just say he he he maybe needs to be a little less ecumenical as a patriarch. And that’s that’s what that means. We’ll just say that. >> Quit cutting [laughter] them things so hard. You cutting them too hard with the >> Yeah. It’s like ah, yeah. [laughter] >> Yeah. Shoddy Turkish made knives. I don’t know. >> Well, now we now we’ve got now we’ve got the Turks mad at us. So, [laughter] uh, let Ed be Ed. I will sponsor a session with Voice of Reason. People [laughter] the people really want to see this.

2:11:55 I guess that’s funny. Uh, let’s see. Can you recommend any books that lay out the context for the text Roman Catholics use for the papacy and provide counterarguments to them? Yes. Rise and fall of the papacy. Craig Truma. That was a good >> you have anything to on that? See, that was a quick one. There you go. >> There you go. [laughter] >> Um, can you explain how prayers are efficacious when offered to an all- knowing God who doesn’t change his mind? I.e., How does Moses seem to persuade >> Right? So, we don’t pray to change God. We pray to change ourselves, right? And so, what God is doing with Moses, and if you want detail on that, I won’t go into the super detail here because Glee needs his his beauty sleep.

2:12:47 [laughter] Uh but the um but uh the you can listen to my Bible studies, whole council of God Bible studies uh wherever podcasts are sold. Uh and uh where I go through those texts, this is God doing this exercise with This is about transforming Moses. And if you follow the through line, God puts Moses in a position where Moses is asking for mercy and forgiveness for people who are threatening to murder him, Um and so through this process, right, God is bringing Moses into a deeper knowledge of God himself, right?

2:13:47 Moses is being transformed by this. Moses is learn because what’s Moses’ problem? We don’t tend to talk about this, right? Like David has a problem. It’s women, >> Like everyone he sees. Um Moses has a problem. It’s anger. >> Right. It’s anger. So Moses has this group of people he’s been called to lead. They keep threatening to kill him and go back to Egypt. Right. And how does God help Moses work through and repent of and be transformed and healed from his anger, from the passion of anger? by putting him in this position where not only does he have to not get angry at them and want revenge on them, right?

2:14:33 And want to see them get theirs where he’s having to plead their case. >> Where God is basically offering him revenge. You know what? I’m tired of it. I’m going to wipe them all out for you. [laughter] Right. And I’ll start over with you. >> Right. And Moses is having to say, “No, no, don’t do that.” Right. Um so this is this is for our benefit. This transforms us. Right. We we don’t actually think that like, okay, this person is sick in the hospital. If we just get enough people to pray, God will heal them. Like, and if we get one too few, he won’t. [laughter] Like, no one actually thinks that, right? Other than maybe those people who post the the things on Facebook because they’re boomers, right?

2:15:19 So they’re like, you know, if we don’t get 20 likes, this kid will, you know, >> if we don’t get 20 likes, the kid’s gonna pass away. >> Yeah. That’s horrible. >> Um Oh, those exist. [laughter] >> If you if you skip if you don’t share this Facebook post. Yeah. >> Uh you hate Jesus or something. >> Nobody other than those boomers buys that, right? Like that’s not how we think it works, right? But when our whole community joins together in prayer for this this sick person, it’s it’s a manifestation of our unity, our compassion and love for that person that transforms us and them and our community. And God gives us the privilege of sometimes, for example, God God works normally through means, right?

2:16:10 And sometimes he heals people through our prayers. >> And when he does, that’s a privilege he’s giving us because he doesn’t need our prayers to do it, >> But he gives us this privilege of of being a part of it, right? That’s transformative to us. So prayer is not about changing God. It’s about changing >> Same [clears throat] thing with confession. I tell this to people all the time who come to confession, right? God knows all the stuff you did already. >> Yes. [laughter] Like you’re not giving He knows better than you do. He knows all the stuff you’re not saying because you’re embarrassed. He knows all the stuff you forgot. He knows all the stuff that I’m too sinful to even realize was a sin, right? Like he knows all that. >> So why am I going there and saying it to him out loud?

2:16:57 Well, because it’s transforming me, >> The act of saying that out loud and and admitting it and coming clean about it and resolving to fight against it, this is going to transform and change me. It’s [clears throat] not about me admitting this stuff to him and pleading with him not to be mad at me about it. Like he already knows, >> And he still loves me despite it all. >> Yeah. I think I think that’s that’s that’s very profound and it is it is a aspect to growing in your prayer life. reading like I mean I know probably not every layman I I don’t know people have different opinions on this but the filia for for instance references quite a few times uh the concept of being content with the outcome but maintaining your prayer life regardless and going into it with just the understanding God’s will be done God’s will be done God’s will be done and not overthinking these prayers as if like well if I offer like 50 of them or something this is going to make it more you know so on and so forth.

2:18:03 It’s you’re going in there with the understanding God’s will be done. God’s will be done. Um I it’s it’s it’s it is a it is a profound shift in the way that people view prayer because I feel like a lot of people, especially people that are new, um and even just new to prayer in general, kind of look at prayer as I’m just asking God for stuff. >> Like this is my wish list. worse. A lot of the Pro Protestant prayers I used to make were reading God my list of >> Yeah. [laughter] >> Keep me healthy. Help me do well on this You know, um all the things I wanted him to do for me and for other people who I cared about, >> And that ain’t it, man.

2:18:51 Right. At a certain point, we have to accept that not only is God the one who’s in control of things >> and not me, >> but he does a way better job than I >> That’s right. [laughter] >> And accepting that, >> right? Like just base level humility, right? God does a better job at being God than I would if I was God. >> Right. which sounds absurd when you say it like that, but is super hard to get into our heads and actually really believe and feel. Right. There was a uh let me see if I can find this one citation because it ties directly into this and then we’ll we’ll move on to the next question. But it’s super profound cuz I can’t I feel like I can’t articulate it in the same way as Evangrios the solitary said in the filia but he puts it very well and I I I shared this on on X the other day and it it was really um something to mle over but he says often when I have prayed I asked for what I thought was good and and persisted in my petition stupidly in inopportuning the will of God and not leaving it to him to arrange things as he knows is best for me.

2:20:03 But when I obtained what I asked for, I’ve been sorry that I didn’t just ask the will of God to be done because the thing turned out not to be as I had thought. So it’s >> what I asked for um in my own in my own kind of understanding if he actually gives it to me in the way that I asked for sometimes that’s a lot worse than just saying God your will be done in this situation. Right. >> Like for I I’ll give I’ll give a short >> example. um you know a while ago uh you know I had a I had a cancer diagnosis and if I were just like I don’t know if I were to pray before that uh God you know I I I pray that I never get cancer ever you know my entire life I pray that I never get sick I pray that I never have a a bad disease or whatever. Well you know what I would have missed out on a whole lot because me me getting that cancer really brought me a lot closer to God than I had ever been in my entire life.

2:20:54 It was probably one of the most important things to ever happen to me. So in our understanding it seems quite often that the things that we desire and the things that we ask for God um are much much much almost always much worse than what God’s plan is [laughter] and what what his will is. >> Well that’s St. Paul in Romans 1 and this is a theme all through the Old Testament. [clears throat] >> Right. But what St. Paul says he gave them over to their desires. >> Yeah. He’s literally saying, “God gave them what they wanted.” >> Yep. That’s right. >> That’s a punishment. >> Right. God giving you what you think you >> That’s right. >> Yeah. If I If I was given what I want every day, my life would be horrible.

2:21:43 >> My afterlife would also be horrible. >> It would not be a good thing. All right. Um, Octavian says, “Father Steven D. Young’s Vinmo. I’ll sponsor two sessions.” This is before [laughter] I spent on the other with the voice of Um, oh, this one was kind of answered already, but uh, Mojo, can you explain monarchical trinitarianism to oneness Pentecostals? I don’t know where the tiein is that that, you know, they don’t they deny the trinity. >> Well, they deny the trinity. Yeah. So, I mean, see see what I said before. Um, yeah. The the the problem most people have with the Trinity is they think that the Trinity is saying that God is one and three in the same sense. >> And it doesn’t.

2:22:29 At no point does it say >> Mhm. [clears throat and laughter] >> Right. God God is three and is united in a series of senses. Right? And when we talk about there being one God, we’re talking about the father in particular. Let’s see. Here you go. Austin asks, “Would it be rude to ask my priest if it would be possible to be baptized in a local river? I just love to follow Christ’s own example, but understand it may be too much of a burden to organize. >> I mean, it doesn’t hurt to talk to him about it privately, >> Don’t don’t put people on the spot publicly. Yeah. [laughter] >> Don’t wait until he’s about to get you in the thing.

2:23:16 >> Yeah. Well, yeah. And don’t do it at like coffee hour with a whole bunch of people standing around. >> Right. Like say, “Hey, can I talk to you for a minute?” There’s I would It’ be cool because there may be I mean, depending on the river, there may be regulations where you can’t do that. Like I I just this past Sunday, we did the outdoor blessing of water for the offy. And here in Lafayette, I have two a couple of options. I could bless a swamp or I [laughter] could do what we do every year, which is we bless basically a duck pond at a local park. >> There you go. >> Right. But like I could not baptize someone in that duck pond. Like the water is green. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. >> There’s ducks relieving themselves in it 24. Like I’m not It’s not an appropriate place. So >> he made the regulations preventing it, right?

2:24:05 Like >> you should do the epiphany dive in the swamp. That’d be cool. Exactly. >> Come up with a snake hanging off of you. >> You got to fight an alligator, you know. >> That would be wild. That would be very interesting. All right. Um Oh, it’s not. Let me move on to the next one. Weird. Technical issues. I’ll just read the next one. Uh Mista asks, “Can you refute the doctrine of Mormon spacewives? I find it very compelling. [laughter] Uh, you find living eternally with a woman who is always pregnant to be >> That’s [laughter] an interesting way to word it.

2:24:55 >> So there, that’s my reputation. >> There you go. It’s not letting me take this super chat down, so I guess it’s just going to stay up there. That’s kind of annoying. I’ll keep trying, but it’s like frozen there. >> That’s weird. Uh Sean sends in $2 super chat. No question though. Thank you so much for supporting the show. Oh wow. So, uh sometimes I feel like I’m all alone in this world. You get a more panoramic view of my bookshelves right now. >> Oh, there you go. >> Oh, here we are. Okay. >> Yeah, it booted me out. That was what it was. Very strange. All right. >> I just kept ripping. It was fine. Uh, Green Emperor, I’ve heard Lutheran say their gracious presence view is a better answer towards essence energy issue and more quote unquote biblical.

2:25:44 I think this is wrong, but would like to hear your thoughts. >> Yeah. So, the problem is uh I’m trying to trying to do this short and to try to do it short, I was about to recommend a book to you, but the book’s only available in German. [laughter] So, I don’t want I don’t want to do that. That would be mean. Uh there is a book called Luther un theosis [laughter] which is all Lutheran arguing for theosis and pushing toward the essence energy >> distinction.

2:26:36 Um I think that the more biblical thing just falls apart if you actually look at the way the term era is literally used. >> Right. Yeah. >> In scripture. >> Um in the New Testament. So I mean the no the no the more biblical case that falls apart very quickly. Um I mean I I think Luther my view having read set that book and similar things um I think Luther was kind of fumbling uh the essence energies distinction. There are a number of places where he was kind of fumbling toward the orthodox >> that he didn’t have any direct access to Luther the person.

2:27:24 >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. uh melenan had a Greek deacon living with him uh through a lot of the reformation so there was some limited access and a little bit of influence here and there not so much on methan I don’t think as on uh Luther himself but you find him using like the iron and fire analogy >> for Christ’s two natures which is a really common theosis language you find you find some of these things but he never quite completes the circle And also Luther was just not a systematic thinker. >> He’s all over the place. >> On all kinds of things. >> You know, it’s like it’s like the uh there’s that question of like if you had if you had um you know, Hitler as a baby or something like would you would you go back in time?

2:28:13 Well, for me it’s like if if Luther, right, if I can go back in time, I would try to make him orthodox rather than, you know, splitting off and all of this other stuff. >> I mean, the practicality of it just wasn’t there. I mean, Constantinople had fallen like 60 years before that and >> you know, um but yeah, it’s uh >> yeah, and and a lot of a lot of what ended up becoming Lutheranism was really historybound because I’m thinking about the central aspects of the relationship between the civil magistrate and the church and all of That understanding was very much based on the practicalities of him needing German princes to protect him from ending up like Yan Hus.

2:29:03 >> Yep. Yep. [laughter] >> Right. And so a lot of those practicalities influenced >> various theological structures in various ways. >> Yeah. I mean he could have um earlier earlier on though maybe um tried to become a monastic somewhere you know. Well, yeah. He would have had to leave Germany essentially. >> Correct. Yeah. He would have had to leave a >> Yes. Yes. Yes. >> In Eastern Europe somewhere. And Yeah. >> Then we probably wouldn’t know who he >> Yeah. [laughter] >> Uh with the LXS saying uh virgin Isaiah 7. Does that mean the LXX is wrong since it talks about young been confused when learning about what fulfillment means? >> Sure. Uh so first of all uh every time someone says the LXX uh the Septuagent a kitten somewhere dies.

2:29:57 So stop saying that. Um [laughter] >> not the kittens. Somebody click that. >> The Septuagent is a particular translation of the Torah just the first five books that was made in Alexandria uh in the uh 3rd century BC. >> So Isaiah was translated later. There is an old Greek Isaiah, but there are a bunch of different Greek versions. so there’s not just one Greek Old Testament. Um, and when you get into the weeds of this, it gets really confusing. >> Uh, like the version of Daniel that we read liturggically in the Orthodox So for example on Holy Saturday in Holy Week uh at the liturgy in the morning uh we read uh this basically the story of the three youths the fiery furnace.

2:30:51 So the version of Daniel we read that from is a Greek translation done by a Jew in the 2n century ADH. Mhm. >> So that’s the version we use lurggically, which makes it arguably the canonical version, >> But we only use Daniel from his >> So it’s a lot more complicated than that. But the core of your question is about the word parthonos. And at the time parthonos was used in the 3rd century BC, it basically meant young woman, same way alma in Hebrew does. But a young woman who wasn’t married was expected to be a virgin, right?

2:31:38 So there’s not really this big dichotomy there, right? People are putting way too much on on that one word. Uh in both cases, the people who try to say, “Oh, it’s Alma, so see no virgin birth.” Like that’s not the basis of the belief of the virgin birth, right? Like St. Matthew just says that St. Joseph did not know her before she gave birth, right? Like >> that Isaiah quote, Isaiah quote, there’s other places that talk about the virgin birth of the New Testament without reference to the Isaiah quote. So, it doesn’t all hinge on which word it is. Parthos came later in Greek to be um to be specifically a virgin.

2:32:27 And the way we know that is that starting in the 2n century AD, the Greek word parthnos started being used to refer to men. >> So clearly the meaning had changed from young, you weren’t calling them a young woman. You were saying they were a virgin and specifically a monk. It was used for monastics, >> male monastics >> u after that point. And so the argument that the fathers are making about that word being in the Greek translation is way more nuanced. It’s not that word means virgin. >> It’s that word came to mean virgin and it was the providence of God that that word was used in the 3rd century BC.

2:33:16 >> Right. because there were other Greek words you could use to mean young woman. And in fact, one of the other Greek uh used uh naanisa which is another word for young woman instead of >> Um so the fact that that word which came to mean version was chosen was seen as being divine providence. It’s not an argument from grammar like I gotcha right like because you you know what’s interesting you never find Jews making that argument >> in the early centuries they don’t think Alma is a gotcha.

2:34:02 >> Right. Right. >> That’s like a modern thing. That’s a that’s an interesting way to word it too. If you were to um really look at any of these kind of argument questions where people are using these things as gotchas and see like well was there did this pop up at any time in the early church or in early Jewish texts at all? Did they did they use it in this such a way or is this something that we’re just kind of we’re making a stink about now? I mean because otherwise I think the approach for people who maybe don’t understand the differences in like manuscript traditions or don’t understand the differences between like you were mentioning uh Daniel uh the version uh I believe you’re referring to the version compiled by Theodocion, >> Theodosian. Yeah. >> Yeah. So, um, uh, like if if you if you don’t want to have to go through and dissect all of that, I think an easy way would be, well, is this mentioned in the early Jewish text?

2:34:58 Is this mentioned in the early Christian text as an argument? Are they arguing about this particular thing? Uh, because sometimes that could be a litness test of, well, has this did this come up in like the first thousand years of the church or am I just kind of like stinking about it now? You know what I mean? >> Yeah. Well, that’s frankly, this is going to be controversial. Any KJV only people are about to get really upset with me, >> but the Kama Johanium, that’s the proof that it’s comes from Latin texts, >> right? That it wasn’t there in any of the Greek texts. >> If you if you need that proof, you I’ll tell you in a minute why you don’t actually, but you know that says there are three who testify in heaven, the father, the son, and the spirit. Right? that extra piece of a verse.

2:35:44 Um, if that was there, don’t you think that like St. Basil the Great would have brought it up? >> Like don’t you think he would have quoted that at some point? >> Or or St. Gregory the theologian like the people who are arguing for the trinity like none of them quote that verse [clears throat] No one quotes it. until this becomes a big deal with Arasmus. >> And if you read so the a after Greek independence in 1904 and then a second edition, an edited edition 1912, the patriarchade of Constantinople published a printed Greek old uh New Testament for the first time.

2:36:33 It’s referred to as the patriarchal text, first edition 1904. And the 1912 edition just corrected a bunch of typos and errors. Right. Basically, um, so it’s usually called the 19012 text. It’s interesting to think that’s the first printed Greek New Testament that the Greeks had because the Turks wouldn’t let Christians operate a printing press. >> So, they were using handwritten like the gospel books they were using in liturgies were handcopied >> until 1904. >> Right. Um, and so they collected about 250 lectionary texts that were being used in Greek churches and put together the printed text from that. >> And when you get to that verse, that verse is in there, right?

2:37:21 That extra verse, but they put a footnote. The people who compiled it said, “This verse was not in any of our actual texts [laughter] that we looked at, but we put it in because the patriarch asked us Nice. [laughter] >> And so they said, “Yes, your holiness, [laughter] we will go ahead and put that in there.” >> There you go. >> Since you asked us to, >> you know, um I want to move on to the next question here in a moment. But one one thing I wanted to bring up about if you are interested in learning more about that, we’re talking about the different versions of uh Daniel and the one that we particularly use. This is outlined actually in detail in a text called against Rufinus. Uh Jerome actually goes back and forth um in a in a dialogue uh uh about you know the inclusion of this particular text in the in the text against refinance.

2:38:15 But what’s interesting is the reason I bring this up uh Roman Catholics try to use this text as a uh proof text that there were no distinctions between the dudero canon and the primary uh the primary book. There was no there’s no distinction in authority. That’s what they’re trying to say. They say, “No, Jerome actually changed his mind. Uh, he held to a tier distinction like the Orthodox do, you know, so on and so forth.” No, no, no. He changed his mind. He changed his mind. You know, he says he submits to the judgment of the churches as far as these are all in the same level of authority, which nobody really ever taught. >> Uh, but they’ll go and they’ll quote mine against Rufinus. Uh, but what he’s actually talking about is the version of Daniel, uh, compiled by Theodosian. He says, “I submit I submit to the judgment of the churches on this.” This is the version I included in the Vulgate.

2:39:01 So, >> kind of interesting subject. >> Um, trueistic faith. Father Steven D. Young has single-handedly opened my eyes to the truth, spiritual richness, and nuances of the Orthodox faith. Also, Alex Saurin low-key mogs cleave. It’s over. It’s over, Alex. You win. >> I think you’re taller, though. [laughter] I don’t know. I’ve never I haven’t met Alex in real life. So, I’m six foot. So, we’ll have to see how tall Alex is. >> I have the impression that that you’re a little taller than it. Maybe I’m wrong, >> watch you. You get surprised. He’s like seven foot tall. [laughter] >> I don’t know a lot of seven foot tall Romanians, but >> you never know. >> You never know.

2:39:46 You You know who um who is much taller than they appear online? Uh Mario. He is super tall. That He is like 6’7. [laughter] He is very tall. >> Yeah, I’m 6’4. Anyone taller than me is a freak of nature. >> Yeah, [laughter] >> I am the limit. >> Yeah. Yeah. Mario is very, very tall. That’s why. So, he took a picture with Luigi one time and they started calling Luigi a manlet. Luigi is like 5’11 or six foot or something and Mario’s so much taller than him. Like, oh, like Luigi’s like 5’4 or something is what >> He’s like Irish. So, is he just standing on a sack of potatoes or something? Like, what? [laughter] >> Nice. [snorts] Uh, Father Steven the Young, uh, would you battle Gavin Orland with Spike baseball bats like an Escape from New York?

2:40:35 I would sponsor. [snorts] >> I, uh, I challenged him on Lord of Spirits a few years ago to a steel cage match. >> There you go. >> That challenge has gone unanswered. I even said he could name an additional if he wanted to. >> A cage a cage match. There you go. >> Gavin, come come over. Why Why are you running? Why are you running? I’m just kidding. You know what’s uh what’s funny? Trent Horn said that he would do a uh a jiu-jitsu debate with me uh when I was a Protestant. We were messaging we were messaging back and forth before the you know his wife had the the cancer problem. So make sure to pray pray for Laura Horn with her recovery >> on that. She still doesn’t have all of her all of her speech and stuff, though she seemed pretty articulate in the last video.

2:41:23 So, that was good. But I was messaging back and forth back in the day with Trent and he said, “I made a joke post on X. I was like, the future of debates will be settled with combat sports, you know, and we’re just like joking or whatever.” And Trent was like, “Actually, I love jiu-jitsu. You do jiu-jitsu. We should do a like jiu-jitsu [laughter] debate video.” He’s like, we’ll call it like grappling with God or something like grappling with theology, you know. >> So, but I don’t I don’t know if that I don’t know if that still would happen, but I would still be down to do it later when I’m doing debates again because I want to >> Wait until that’s appropriate. But, um, Randall, I asked Cle this, but I want your take, father. Why is veneration of people okay in the Old Testament like Joshua bowing to Michael but rebuked in Revelation if because Jesus is present?

2:42:14 Wasn’t God present then too? right when you get those rebukes it’s because of a clarification. It’s a matter of clarification uh there’s the angel of the Lord in the Old Testament who is Christ and then there are just angels right and one of the ways you could tell which one you’re dealing with in a Old Testament passage is that when it’s the angel of the Lord they accept not just veneration but sometimes worship like with uh uh Gideon’s sacrif fice for example when I is an example of worship right um whereas when it’s just an angel they will say no right get up right [laughter] that’s don’t be afraid they’ll correct it right and so is the same kind of thing right Christ is there but when Christ appears to remember Christ is appearing to St.

2:43:25 John who like reclined on his chest right who knew him right as a very close friend right in his earthly ministry but now when he encounters Christ the same person in right he’s got like bronze skin and white hair [laughter] like he does not it’s it’s Christ in his sort of full and so and he sees Christ in several ways in his vision so He sees Christ in that way. He sees the lamb who was slain. He sees right there are sort of different descriptors for Christ. But he also sees angels and other heavenly beings. Right? And so those are points in the text where that’s being disambiguated.

2:44:12 This is not another appearance of Christ. This is an angelic being. >> Right. Whereas these other ones where he’s not corrected, that’s Christ. Uh, contemporary companion. Good to see you, dude. Uh, just shave it all, grow the beard, and get that biker look going. Dude, I don’t No, I don’t I I’m I’m going to wait until I have Homer Simpson hair before I shave it all off. Okay. Two strands. That’s what I’m That’s what I’m doing. Once I got the Homer Simpson going, then I’ll consider shaving it. >> Is two the answer to Aris Aristotle’s question was, can we define bald by a certain number of hairs? Yes. >> Right. How many hairs is the transition? >> So your answer is two.

2:44:58 >> Yep. Two hairs. Two hairs. Once you’re Once you’re Homer Simpson maxing, you’re bald. That’s it. >> So, hey, Father, Father D. Young, love going through your books. Just finished Religion of the Apostles. What was your background before becoming Orthodox? Could you please give your top takedowns of Anglicanism? So, one killshot argument for Anglicanism. Thank you. Good work, Cle. Thanks. [laughter] >> Yeah. So, I I grew up Dutch reformed in a super Dutch community. Like, everyone I went to school and church with were the same kids and they were all Dutch. They’re all blondhaired, blue-eyed people with last names like Um, so [laughter] that’s um that so that’s my background. scholastically, I went to different schools like my undergrad was at basically an evangelical school.

2:45:51 Then I went and did a masters of philosophy at a Roman Catholic school. I went I did an Mdive at Westminster Seminary that’s reformed. Um so I had a bunch of that stuff. Anglicanism, I mean if you’re lukewarm, Christ will spit you out of his mouth, right? Like be hot or cold, be orthodox or be a prot, you know? Like I >> I have a I have I have a favorite argument against Anglicanism that I think is pretty pretty easy to remember. Well, [laughter] if if they claim to hold to the ecumenical councils because they claim to hold the first six, right? Um if that if that is the case, do they actually hold to the anathemos?

2:46:38 Ask an Anglican, do they think the Coptics are condemned heretics? Do they think do they think that they are her that they’re actually heretics according to the ecu you know leave out the part about ecumenical councils? Just ask >> even that only works on some Anglicans. >> That’s true. The >> average Episcipalian isn’t going to know what you’re talking about. [laughter] >> Well, you could just say is is a is a is a Coptic condemned? You know, is Coptic theology condemned? You know, if they say because I asked this to Aiden Mattis, who is an Anglican, and he was like, I give them a pass. They’ve been persecuted, whatever. I’m like, this is my point. you don’t have the same faith as the Christians of the first thousand years of the church. >> And you know, I wasn’t mean to him or anything. It was like a very cordial discussion. He’s like I was like just to give you something to think about was the intent. So >> yeah, but yeah, Anglicanism is such a big tent.

2:47:26 >> Right. You’ve [clears throat] got these wildly liberal Episcopalians in the US. Uh Church of England, you have literal atheists who are priests because they can’t discriminate in hiring. It’s a government job. I’m not joking about >> Right. Yeah. >> Right. Like they’re all over the map. You’ve got 39 articles guys who are basically Calvinists who are Anglicans. You’ve got Anglo Catholics, right, who [laughter] you know there who are big into the branch theory thing, you know, um it’s it’s all over the place. So >> it’s hard to just come up with one thing. Like I said, that’s a good argument for a certain type of Anglican. >> But you go to some Episcopalian shebishop in in the US. [laughter] >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. >> Um, all right.

2:48:15 Let’s try to get through these quick. We have 16 questions left. >> Wow. Okay. >> So, let’s see if we can we’ll see if we can knock these out. >> Even quicker. Yeah. >> Yeah. What is your view on the book of Enoch? What does this mean? Contributions to the Orthodox. >> Um, so I will do this quickly. Uh you can still go and take the course I taught on the book of Enoch at PJO Jonathan Pacou’s uh platform. Uh it’s cheaper now that it’s done and you’re not doing it live. But uh you can also read about the book of Enoch in my book Apocrypha. It is one of the many extra biblical texts that I cover in that book. >> Nice. So go check out his book. Absolutely. Uh Kob asks uh what did Rome change uh when did Rome change crisismation to be older and is the beginning of the West treatment of children as secondass Christians?

2:49:09 >> Um yeah so it has to do with um them intellectualizing uh the uh what it means to discern the body of Christ in St. Paul’s uh warning in 1 Corinthians uh they intellectualize that too. You need to understand what the Eucharist is and how it works as if any of us do that. But um so that gets intellectualized. Uh and so you get the separation between crisismation and baptism. And then now this is actually a really good killshot argument for Roman Catholics.

2:49:56 Ask them to explain to you why first communion comes before confirmation >> which is the modern practice. Uh they do not have a good answer, >> They know it’s cockeyed. [laughter] Does it make sense theologically? is not anybody’s including their own ancient >> right? They can’t explain it. But that’s it. It’s been intellectualized. And this is one of the darker parts of Roman Catholic theology. Uh they will not give the Eucharist to elderly people with dementia. They will not give the Eucharist uh to cognitively impaired people, whether they’re born that way or have brain catastrophic brain injuries.

2:50:43 Um if you are cognitively compromised, they will not give you the Eucharist. Now, some priests defy that and do it anyway. And I say, “Good on them.” Uh, >> but some Roman Catholic priests have a pastoral sensibility and defy that. But that is the official stance. Yeah, that’s uh that’s shocking. I’ve never heard that they deny the Eucharist mentally impaired people. >> Yep. Lord have mercy. >> That is the official policy. >> Where can where can I where can I look into that more? I don’t think it’s in the catechism, >> but that’s one you could actually ask your local Catholic priest about.

2:51:31 They could [laughter] >> Yeah, I I’ll go I’ll go find one and crack them down and ask him. Well, to [laughter] be fair, I don’t think >> No, I mean, this is this is um >> I’m not sure what that what it’s not the missile. Um, there’s a text that’s like the contemporary we what we would call a priest guide. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> That has those kind of policies in it and I can’t remember what it’s called right now. It’s not I mean the missile is the services themselves. >> Yeah. I’ll look I’ll look it up later. I’ll figure it out >> in there. >> Yeah. I’d like to I’d like to I’d like to look into that more because that’s an interesting that’s an interesting >> and I like that I I for someone someone called me out on that because I I we did a we did an episode of Lord of Spirits on obedience talking about the importance of obedience and someone said well how does this fit with you saying that Roman Catholic priests should disobey stuff like that >> I was like if you’re something other than an Orthodox Christian then your salvation depends on you being disobedient to the false teachers who are pointing [laughter] you in the wrong >> Yeah, like this, >> you know, >> right?

2:52:37 That’s a good point. [laughter] >> Um, I was curious as to do you guys take I have a family member who believes Tobit 6 is endorsing magic and witchcraft by burning the fish, heart, and liver to get rid of an evil spirit. How do I respond? >> Uh, you point to places in the canonical scriptures where they do stuff like that and it’s not witchcraft. Like Ezekiel cooking all his food over burning dung. >> Right. Right. >> Like there are lots of or you know Christ putting mud on someone’s eyes and telling him to go wash in a particular >> in order to have his sight restored or name of the leper being told to go dip himself in the Jordan River seven times. >> Stuff like that with healings happens all the time in the Bible.

2:53:25 >> Yeah. Look at the look at the serpent staff. look at the uh the oh you know we’re going to uh look at the do so on and so forth. Yeah. >> Yeah. So there’s there’s a fundamental difference in the way that our Protestant evangelical friends read the dudero canonical books and read the >> Where they read the dudero canonicals they point to the same kind of stuff that atheists point to in the actual >> Yes. Yeah. I’ve noticed a lot of a lot of the Protestant uh anti-Orthodox, anti-Roman Catholic arguments are ultimately just the same as atheist arguments. It’s the same thing. >> Yeah. Just they bracket it off. >> Yeah. Too many too many one true churches, too many too many religions. >> The atheist is being consistent and saying all of this sounds absurd to me. Whereas said, well, this is in my cannon, so it’s bracketed off.

2:54:14 But >> Tobet, you know, right, >> I’m not going to read the same way. I’m not going to give it the benefit of the >> right? There’s no distinctions. Just let you know. >> Uh, Father Stephen, what do you recommend for someone struggling with restorationism? After the apostles, the church wasn’t easy to identify until after X it becomes clear who’s in the >> Uh, well, I mean, I think that’s fundamentally just a denial that the gates of hell will prevail against the church. Mhm. >> I mean, there’s just a basic I mean, when I was at Westminster, this is way before I was Orthodox, but they’re presenting like, okay, there’s the Pauline gospel and then Martin Luther recovers the Pauline >> These are Presbyterians.

2:55:06 These aren’t like restorationists, per se, but presenting it in those terms. And even then I’m like so wait right and and treating it in some cases I mean even professors treating like it’s an open question was anybody saved between St. Paul the death of St. Paul and Martin and the answer they would give in all seriousness was well St. Augustine because if you don’t say St. Augustine would save that mean nobody. >> Right. Right. and you’re and it’s just like what right like how is that plausible with the promises that Christ makes >> to his church in the New Testament? It it’s just not.

2:55:52 >> Yeah, that was um that was something I brought up in the Avengers stream was like as a simple argument or simple question you could ask. I actually asked this to Need God. Um Jay Jay gave me Jay gave me a good kind of counter counter rebuttal, but I don’t think people think that far. I just asked need God. I said, “Can you name me one one one Christian you would agree with in the first thousand years of the church?” Just one. Any one. Give me one that that that you >> you agree with about pretty much everything. Yeah. >> Right. Yeah. Just one. I mean, obviously, you’re not going to find like somebody probably has a weird take on like, I don’t know, they believe, you know, dogs are evil or something, you know? Yeah. >> Some random like opinion they held. >> Um, but just in in general, like, give me one need God couldn’t do it. He stopped replying to me cuz he asked me he asked me some gotcha and he was like um cuz I I had just I forget I just left one comment.

2:56:43 I usually don’t do any back and forths on X. I just leave a comment and I go. But he asked me a question. He said you’re you’re dodging my question I asked you which was how many good works do you need to do to get into heaven? Like which is >> he thinks you’re Roman Catholic and believe in merit. Yeah. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Which is like some nonsensical nonsensical uh you know thing. So I I give him a basic explanation. I say, “Well, okay. Well, since I asked I asked that since I answered your question, name me one Christian you agree with, you know, in the first thousand years of the church.” He’s like, “Rick, it’s nothing.” So >> well, you know, you know who asked him that question was Joe Heshmire in their debate on baptism, uh, baptismal regeneration. So good on good on Joe. That was a good that was a good angle to take. Um, Father, is seminary worth it to be a catechist and not clergy?

2:57:31 I appreciate your vast knowledge and I want to be well learned, but I’m a dumb public school kid. [laughter] well, what do you mean by worth it? Do you mean worth the money? [laughter] Um because frankly uh if you’re talking about money, I don’t know that it’s worth it to try to move to Boston or New York City, >> especially if you have a family for three or four years, >> To go to seminary to be a priest. I think that’s a bad model that we’re going to have to get rid of. Um, >> if you go to seminary, you could hang out with Ethan Wayne. No. >> Well, [snorts] but more and more, including at least one of the Orthodox seminaries now, but also like the Antioch House of Studies, there are uh mostly online masters programs and stuff like MAS in in theology.

2:58:34 And there are particular like the Educate House of Studies has like an iconography track. uh different everything like that where you could just learn theology. It’s much cheaper. You don’t have to move Um and I think those kind of programs are worth it to be a catechist. >> Here’s a good question. Catacuman, I don’t see the background of the saying, I know where the church is, but not where it’s not in the early church. Is this a new understanding? >> Uh that’s just a that’s a misquote. Mhm. >> in uh Metropolitan Kalisto of of blessed >> see, here’s here’s one of the things people forget. >> When someone like him dies, you’re supposed to forget about the stuff he said that wasn’t so great.

2:59:20 And just remember the good stuff, >> Like this is part of the grace that we show [laughter] >> to our fathers in Christ, right? I’m hoping people will do that for me. If I say anything worthwhile, remember that. forget all the other stuff. It’s not worth remembering, right? >> They’re gonna they’re going to quote you saying uh saying you’re going to cage fight Gavin Orland then >> that’ll [laughter] be well that should live on in infamy. But the um but yeah, so it’s a misquote of what uh St. Arnaeus says. We know where the Holy Spirit is, we don’t know where he is. >> So it’s just it’s it’s a misquote, >> right? And he says that in the context of talking about the church because the place where we know the Holy Spirit is is in the church, [clears throat] >> not in the individual believer but in the church.

3:00:12 The body of Christ is animated by the Holy Spirit. Um and so what he’s trying to say is the Holy Spirit is also active outside the church but in ways that we don’t know. Right? As Christ says, the Holy Spirit blows where where he will. No one knows where he comes from and where he’s going, right? We don’t know about that. We can’t attest to that. We can’t point people. When we’re pointing people somewhere, we point them to the church because that’s where we know he is for >> Right? And you know what’s interesting? I just said that in the stream I did with Alex Saurin because that same question came up. So because that was a that was an objection that um >> what’s his face a messenger of truth put out. He said, “Oh, we know where the church is. We don’t know.” You know, so I I I actually had that same that same exact answer.

3:00:58 So vindicated immediately, same day vindication by Father Steven D. >> Well, and let let the listener understand remember what I said about that whole little brother syndrome thing and remember that Metropolitan Kalistos was a Greek bishop in Europe. >> It’s and and remember how Vatican 2 looks at the church. So, >> uh, the more Father Steven keeps Cleave on stream, the less time Cleave has to practice at Marvel Rivals. Father Steven is a genius. >> But he’s going to be on my team. You don’t seem to understand how this is going to work, right? I’m shooting myself in the foot. >> That’s true. >> I’m gonna be trying to carry five amateurs in these these games. >> Yep. And uh and I’ll I’ll uh I’ll [snorts] I’ll play as boomer as I possibly can.

3:01:44 No, I’m just kidding. H I’ve never played Marvel Rivals a day in my life, so I have no idea. [laughter] Uh so this will be this will be interesting. I’ve played like Overwatch and stuff like that. So >> if you’ve played Overwatch, you have a leg up, >> Because Marvel Rivals is literally so NEI, the company that made Marvel >> was the company that did the Chinese localization of Overwatch. >> They lost the contract for Blizzard. And so they created Marvel Rivals. They got the Marvel license and created Marvel Rivals. So, it is like kind of a bootleg Overwatch. [laughter] >> Yeah, there you go. So, it’s bas It’s basically just Overwatch. Well, then it won’t it won’t be too too complicated. >> You’ll be able to segue relatively easily if you play. >> Yeah, I was pretty I was pretty good at Overwatch. I mean, >> I was a Lucio main, so I I always play Lucio.

3:02:34 So, I mean, but I would play Lucio. I get the most healing and the most kills. So, >> yeah. Yeah, there’s a couple healers you could segue into pretty easily. And >> Yeah, Overwatch is absolutely garbage. I agree. Overwatch is not good. My wife still loves Overwatch. She gets into like little seasons where she wants to play it, but >> right now the only thing I’m playing is Rim World. That’s my That’s my game right now. Rim World’s >> Overwatch is way over monetized. >> Now, whereas Marvel Rivals is completely free to play. Like you could play it forever and never spend a penny. They just sell cosmetics. Yeah. >> Like that’s it. Like >> Right. Um, you know, it’s interesting. Father, uh, Chris, the Rocore priest who came on the show not that long ago, introduced me to Rim World. It’s quickly become like my favorite game [laughter] because he does he does gaming streams, too.

3:03:24 Follow Chris. >> All right, let’s see. Um, hey, I just debated a a Catholic and he mentions essence energy distinction creates another god because they’re both considered God but distinct from another. I’m curious your thoughts. So what does he think is the first god, >> So you already have his weird trinitarian thing of the divine essence being God over against the persons. >> Right. [laughter] Um so that’s weird, but also that’s Yeah. This is one of the things they do because they they don’t really what the divine energies are. >> Mhm. Um, and and this is a problem in Latin thinking because it’s a problem in the Latin language and it’s something that’s actually shared by English.

3:04:18 They tend to raify everything. They turn everything into a noun. Um, and so the idea that the divine energies, like if you take one of them is God in action, they don’t understand that. They just turn it into a thing. Right? So the love of God is not God himself loving for them. It is love God’s love as like this thing. >> Right? And so the way they hear what we’re saying is oh God’s love this thing is also God. [laughter] Right?

3:05:05 So you have this thing that’s God and God himself that’s God. That’s two gods, right? Whereas >> energies it is God himself verb actually participle but still it is a verbal idea. It is God himself in >> Right. And so if you talk about uh father Stephen and father Stephen okay what the Roman Catholic is saying to you is that well you have father Steven and then you have himself and then you have father Steven sitting that’s two father Stevens that’s two different people >> I thought a thought just came to me about something you said earlier um if they believe in created like created grace, right?

3:05:59 Wouldn’t that kind of follow that they think that he’s just like there at that moment in time as opposed to uncreated, you know, energies, >> right? Well, that’s why they go to created grace, right? Because if it’s a thing, right, then they have to say, “Oh, well, if it is a thing, if we say it’s uncreated, that’s another god. So, if it’s a thing, it has to be a created thing.” >> And so, my point being, it’s not a thing. That’s like saying Father Stephen sitting is a different thing than Father >> That makes no sense, >> You’d have to say you’d have to say like the Eucharist as a creature if you were using that model, right? Because it’s >> ultimately Yes. >> Yeah. Right. Because you’re you’re saying, well, what are you are you saying you’re participating >> the Eucharist is at least?

3:06:49 Yeah. >> Yeah. Like are you saying you’re you’re participating in the divine essence then? Like is that what they’re trying to say or like And that’s the problem. >> Deification then this is one of the counterarguments. So for you de for them deification has to be a kind of participation in the divine essence. >> And you get the whole beatotific vision thing. Stare at the orb, >> Stare at the orb for all of eternity. Yes. Yes. >> Yeah. But so that’s so an energy is not a thing. It is God in action. So in the same way that father Steven sitting is not a different person than father Steven himself [laughter] right but you could distinguish the two in speech right the the the divine god loving and god himself are distinguishable in speech but they’re not two different gods that doesn’t make any sense >> so they don’t understand what the energies are they don’t understand what enraa means Because actus in Latin is a horrible translation >> somebody says the uh the shimonic vision.

3:08:01 I don’t know if you ever seen you ever seen Sam Shimon with the orbs. It’s like little dust bunnies floating in his house. >> Have you heard that? >> Yeah. Yeah, >> that’s funny. The shimotic vision. Uh uh he was the one that answered my super chat from the other stream in chat about transporters killing humans in Star Trek. Thank you. >> Yeah. Yesterday in Alex’s stream, he asked a super chat about that. >> Nice. Again, altered, you said you’re not a Christian. If you ever want to talk about it, reach out, man. >> Reach out. Um >> how how how can you hear how much I know about Star Trek and not want to become >> That’s right. That’s the strongest argument right there. That’s the atheist killshot right there. Uh Rebecca asks, “Father, have you heard of the concordant literal New Testament translation by ae knock?

3:08:54 It is a cult following that a loved one is wrapped >> Oh, no. I haven’t really. Um, but any any anything that gets cultish around a particular English translation, I’m including like KJV only stuff and and all of that. Uh, and frankly the Jehovah’s Witnesses um with the New World Translation. Uh, that’s a that’s a sign already that there’s something problematic going on there, >> right? Because you know the Bible was not written in English [clears throat] >> and it takes a whole lot of special pleading. If you could only make your theological case from a particular English translation, you can’t make it from the original language, that’s a good sign that you’re >> Right.

3:09:42 That is a good point. Yeah. If you have to if you have to go to a bunch of different translations or something along those lines, then >> you might have some issues there. Um, Mitch Rivers, $5. No, no question though, but thank you for the super chat. I appreciate it. If Rome repented and came back to orthodoxy, what would happen to all the boomer grandmas that want to play shine Jesus shine in the Novasordo? >> Well, yeah. No, this is this is the biggest obstacle, >> That’s why I say the biggest obstacle is what goes on in Roman Catholic parishes. >> Yeah. Yeah, >> that would be much harder to deal with than just on paper them dropping the >> Yep. I completely agree. And and that’s actually something that I I just said in one of the Catholic news videos.

3:10:31 I said, look, if we’re if we’re going to take because what you said is actually very profound. I you know, people don’t realize that. They think that, oh, no, it is the it’s the it’s these theological concepts, etc., etc., that would be the more difficult thing. No, it’s what’s going on. They got pride masses. They’ve got their liturgy is like basically non-existent. It’s a it’s a wild wild west. They have clown mass. They have I’ve seen clowns giving uh the the blood of Christ in a salad bowl. I’ve seen um uh the chicken dance where women are handing they’re doing the chicken dance. A lady’s up on the up on the stage because it’s not really an altar. She’s up on the stage doing the chicken dance while a bunch of uh ladies are handing out the Eucharist. These things have to be addressed, which is why it’s worth calling them out in the Catholic news segments because it’s like, dudes, if you actually want to work towards any kind of actual unity, you got to clean some house first before we can even have the discussions.

3:11:26 >> So, calling it out is super important so that these people can write the bishops. So, you know, maybe the trades will maybe get a little more riled up and say, “Hey, look, we should actually clean some house.” You know, >> but even even beyond the super gross stuff, just little stuff like this, like playing shine Jesus shine >> during the mass or 16-year-old girls handing out the Eucharist or that are regular parts of those sort of parishes, right? Like beyond, you know, there are plenty of Roman Catholics who haven’t actually seen a clown mass in person, right? Like [laughter] that’s but there aren’t a lot who have never seen like those kind of things that we just mentioned, right? Like Protestant worship songs being used in the mass and and women 16 on up uh handing out the Eucharist.

3:12:16 Right. Those are common place. It’s like I I I I’ve had people all the time, “Oh, I think the Anglicans are coming back.” And I’m like, “They’re going to defrock all those women, huh?” >> Right. Right. Unlikely, right? [laughter] >> Yeah, I don’t think that’s Yeah, you’re right. I don’t think that’s going to happen. Um, Joseph, $5. No question though, but thank you for the super chat. Uh, Mitch asks, okay, so this is his question from his other super chat. He just didn’t add it in the first one. Could you articulate the experience of the soul after death for the faithful yet non-saint orthodox Christians still have some Protestant brain here? >> Yeah. So the actual Orthodox teaching is very general.

3:13:03 So if anybody comes to you with like particularities, right? Like I’m not just talking about they talk about toll houses. I’m talking about they start telling you there’s a specific number of toll houses and what each one is about and all this, right? like this is a person to be avoided because they’ve gone off into a weird >> La La Land. Um because the truth is, as the New Testament says over and over again, we don’t know all the details. We don’t know what it’s like to be a soul separated from our body, right? So, we’re not speaking in sort of literal terms with any of this, right? There are different analogies and different ways of talking about it and approaching it. But the core the core that you get from the orthodox tradition uh is that there’s a period of time corresponding to 40 days during our soul is still around our friends, loved ones, our body right in the world.

3:14:05 That is a period of purification. That is described as a >> Right? So if you’re talking about a faithful orthodox Christian, that is a journey to paradise that takes place over time and there is purification during that time experience of purification. Uh that is why we have a 40-day memorial uh in our tradition. Um and then after that the soul departs to paradise which again is imagery. We’re not talking about like the physical garden of Eden, right? At the bottom of the Persian Gulf or wherever you think it is now, right? We’re talking about, right, like the presence of Christ, right? That the our life is hidden in Christ um until his return, right?

3:14:55 And even there, right? Like how do you experience time when you’re not in a human body? Like we don’t know, right? So are you waiting? [laughter] Like are you like in a waiting room like sitting and Right. Like we get sort of metaphors and ways of speaking that we as humans with bodies can understand. >> One of the metaphors that’s used by some fathers, not as many as people like to make out, but some fathers is is the toll. the idea that >> that that period of purification as we’re going from earth to paradise, right? That there are sort of way points at which we’re confronted even maybe too strong of a word, but where we we are reminded where we deal with where we repent of where we finally reject particular sins that have plagued us during our life, right?

3:15:59 and those are analogized to toll houses. you get part of the reason why I warn about getting too literal about it is again I’ll be blunt. Uh, fundamentalist forms of orthodoxy virginnosticism. And so you will sometimes get when you get these people who have these super developed views of the toll houses, they’ll even have like, oh well, when you get to this toll house for this sin, you have to say this or do this like to get it’s like you’re going into narcissism now, man. You’re you’re doing >> Egyptian [laughter] this is you’re taking it too literally. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> Right. Um that’s how I was.

3:16:45 So that’s why I say you don’t want to go in that crazy direct. When when I first came into the Orthodox church, this is like 25 years ago, there were people literally arguing online about how many toll houses there were. >> Like that level of And it’s like, hey, how about just like living a Christian life? Why don’t why don’t we talk about that, guys? >> Then you won’t have to worry about the toll houses, right? [clears throat] So yeah, don’t get too literalistic about that, right? >> Well, I think I think that’s the same >> I’m sorry. I didn’t mean to cut you off. Go ahead. >> I was gonna say I think that’s the same mindset that’s that’s the issue behind This is the reason some clergy warn against like reading especially for like a neophite, the latter of divine ascent or reading any monastic text like the filia or something as a neophite because some people don’t know how to not take these things hyperliterally.

3:17:41 Like you’ll have a monastic say unless you uh or a a willful sin. I think this was like uh um I’m not going to quote exactly who it was. It’s in it’s in the book. All right. Go go go read the book, but yeah. Or or don’t if your priest says not to, but [laughter] um it says um something along the lines of like it is it is very difficult for someone who commits a willful sin to obtain forgiveness for that sin or It’s over for me. I’m going to become super neurotic or something. Not realizing this text is for someone very specific who that priest knows that monk knows is dealing with a specific set of passions that they’re trying to treat. This is a like therapeutic text.

3:18:27 So maybe you shouldn’t take this as if um you know they’re writing directly to Ben, you know. >> Yeah. Oh, well, don’t don’t you know every time every time Oh, you you willfully raised your voice to your wife. That means you’re condemned forever. Time to despair. You know, like I feel like that’s the same that’s the same mindset, you know? >> You have your own private physician in your spiritual father. You don’t need WebMD. Like, >> Don’t try and diagnose yourself. >> Yes. [laughter] Um, those who think Jerome didn’t teach mono episcop read his work on illustrious men in New Advent and just control F bishop. [laughter] There you go. Yeah, >> there’s your cheat. There’s a cheat code right there. >> He certainly did not reject that structure in his time.

3:19:13 Yeah. >> Yes. Uh, Mr. Big Chops, good to see you. This guy’s got a a funny Tik Tok page. Uh, [snorts] if purgatory doesn’t exist, how do we achieve the rest of our theosis upon uh upon death? asking for a Protestant interested in orthodoxy. God >> Yeah. So, how do you reach the end of That’s [snorts] the that’s the problem. So, when you look at the debate at the Council of Florence and the documents, the question that was actually being discussed, the way they phrased it was, does someone have to be perfect to enter the kingdom of heaven? And the crux of the disagreement between the Orthodox and Rome at that time was that they had different definitions of So Rome, for Rome, perfect meant free of temporal guilt, >> It effectively meant innocent.

3:20:14 So if you’re free of temporal guilt, you are now perfect. Mhm. >> Uh whereas for uh the orthodox perfect would mean you are Christ. Your humanity has been perfectly united to God. Uh and you are Christ. You are like one forone match to Christ. And so, of course, the answer the Orthodox gave was, “Well, no, you don’t have to be one for one match for Christ to enter the kingdom of heaven, or no one would, right?” Um, whereas for Roman Catholics, they said, “Well, yeah, you have to be without temporal guilt, therefore Um and so yeah, the core of this is western theology there is a bar.

3:21:08 You have to meet that bar of merit in order to be saved to go to heaven, right? You have to have that much merit and demerit takes away from that. So you get rid of the guilt, right? you stack up the merit, reaches a certain point, you’re saved. In the Roman Catholic view, you accumulate that merit. There’s different kinds of merit, condine and congruent merit and all this, but the idea is uh this ultimately is the merit of Christ, but it’s transferred to your account and it’s done that peace meal, >> right? Through through good works done in piety, through receiving the sacraments, through pilgrimages, through all these things, you pile that up and then you can actually get over the bar. This is the treasury of merits of the >> right? Yeah. you go beyond that, [laughter] right?

3:21:55 Uh but there’s that bar you have to hit, right? And so if you would hit that bar, but there’s some demerits on your account, you go to purgatory, that takes care of that, [laughter] right? And then you go to heaven. Uh Protestantism has the same fundamental view. They just believe Christ earns all the merit through his active and passive obedience and then all of that is just transferred to your account in a lump sum, >> right? and all your demerit is transferred to him. >> And an interesting little tidbit on there, if you actually read because I own I own an indulgence certificate I got from an antique store a long time ago and it’s from uh Pope Pope Pas last Pope Pius. Um [snorts] and it says something along the lines of um it paying for temp your temporal like your temporal death upon the moment of like upon upon the moment of death as as long as you are truly contrite.

3:22:50 I was gonna grab and I was going to run and grab the um certificate, but I figured we’re getting kind of late. I could I could go on I could go on about that for quite some time, but that ties into their theology behind indulgences uh to to begin with, which is kind of interesting. You can kind of like pay money to pull from the treasury of merit. Kind of weird, right? >> Yeah. Yeah. >> Short version here though, orthodoxy there’s no bar. Mhm. >> Your life in this world sets a trajectory in one direction or the >> And as long as you’re alive, you could repent and turn, right? That trajectory toward God. Right. And if you’re on that trajectory toward God, you enter into the kingdom of heaven and continue eternally on that trajectory toward God.

3:23:39 >> Right. And if you’re in the other trajectory that also becomes eternal outside of God miraculously working and right doing other things right but so this is how we explain the thief on the cross right he he switched directions at the last minute that’s the very last minute right um so it’s which road you’re walking and and and which direction you’re going and you can at any point by your own choice turn toward or away from God. >> That’s a good way to put it. >> Octavian with a big super chat for doing the Lord’s work. Thank you for supporting the show. I appreciate it. You sent in quite a few super chats. Thank you for being uh generous, man.

3:24:26 I appreciate it. weird question, but thoughts on nicotine Um, I have a couple of folks in church in my church who actually are using them to quit smoking and stuff. >> Um, so if if you’re I don’t recommend starting to use them just and getting addicted to nicotine pouches. >> Uh, but if they’re a tool that can help quit a self-destructive habit, use the tool. >> You know what was You know what? You know what really worked for me because I used to smoke I used to smoke cigarettes and um you know I would also back then it was like snus pouches or whatever. I would use those.

3:25:13 >> Um but I did that quite a while. There was there was something that um really helped me quit and I got I got cancer so that helped a lot. Well, [laughter] >> that was I had I had a friend in in uh my undergrad who uh he was he was trying to get into Air Force ROC and so he had to do the mile run and he smoked like a >> And so he did the mile run. At the end of the mile run he coughed up this semiolid yellow glob. >> It was like spotted with blood like out of his lung. And like we all looked at it and it was like, “Dude, you need to quit smoking.” He’s like, “Yeah, I’m gonna quit smoking.” [laughter] >> Yeah.

3:25:58 Yeah, that’s probably a good idea. Uh, learning to love relics. How should I view confusing claims like two heads of St. John? are those both in Orthodox churches? Canonical Orthodox churches? >> I don’t know. That’d be a good question. >> the answer is he had two heads. >> Right. So, one of the one of the more entertaining things John Calvin wrote is he did an inventory of all the relics in Western Europe at the time of the Reformation, you know, and it was like, “So, did did St. John the Baptist have like three heads, eight legs, like you know, because of all the claims, right? >> So, um, a lot of that a lot of that was not deliberate fraud by Roman Catholics.

3:26:51 A lot of that was people crusaders getting rookked by merchants in the Holy Land. >> Oh, yeah. They were ripping people off. I got the finger St. John, you know. >> Yeah. Um, so the uh there in the West there’s some weird stuff too, but I won’t get into that. [clears throat] Um but uh generally in the Orthodox church, if something’s in a canonical Orthodox church, they generally know the providence of it. Meaning they know what church it was in before it was there, if there was one, right? If you’re in the Holy Land, it may have always been there, but and sort of how it came to be there, right? Um and so that you should accept. But also also and and this is weird for some people to think about, right?

3:27:45 Um but take for example the human body, right? The actual matter that makes up your body changes out every seven years. >> Right? So you are not a particular set of molecules, right? Because that shifts out and you remain you. Okay? So there is a that is being you at any given point in time, [laughter] right? That’s not the same as 15 years ago, but it’s being you right now. Okay? for example, you you get a lot of evangelical folks, which mountain is Mount Si, right?

3:28:31 Uh well, St. Katherine’s monastery is at a mountain which has been being Mount Si and by that I mean Moses has appeared there. Uh, [laughter] right. It’s been being Mount Si for Christians for at least 1500 years and probably more like 17 or 1800, possibly even more than that, right? Uh, so we may never be able to determine was this actually the mountain that Moses stood on at the end of the bronze age, right? But that mountain has been being Mount Si, right? meaning the grace of God has been active in that mountain for pilgrims for centuries right so even if it turns out that that’s not you know somehow you found out that that wasn’t St.

3:29:27 Catherine’s finger bone technically, [laughter] right? Somehow, I don’t know how you’d ever figure that out, but >> even if you did, uh, odds are good that it’s been being St. Catherine’s fingerbone, meaning the grace of God has been active in people’s life and people have been encountering St. encountering St. Catherine as they venerate that fingerbone for a few centuries at least. So in terms of the role that relic will play in your spiritual life kind of doesn’t matter. >> Question important one. What would you say about essence energy distinction when an apologist like voice of reason explains it away? They say we mean the same thing but language divides us.

3:30:16 He says he says we mean the same thing. That doesn’t even that’s first off that’s just a lie. So there’s all right. We’ll we’ll we’ll make this one a quick >> quick answer. He’s lying. There you go. Well, it’s not the same thing. >> He doesn’t understand his own tradition. >> Correct. Yes. Absolutely. So, you can if you want more detail on that one, Brian, uh go get a $60 one-on-one session with Voice of Reason and [laughter] >> explain in detail what you mean by that. >> But when you ask him, make sure you live stream and make sure you do only a Chinese accent. That is your mission. talk to him only in a Chinese accent. There you go. >> Name one other Roman Catholic who agrees with your position. >> Yes. There you go. Uh this is incredible. Well, thank you.

3:31:03 I think so. It’s been it’s been a fun stream. Um what is the difference between the toll house view of 40 days and the Catholic doctrine of purgatory? >> Uh our view has nothing to do with temporal guilt. Boom. Uh >> purgatory potentially lasts millions of >> I’m not reading that super chat. That super chat’s kind of nasty. Sorry, Eugene. Uh, but >> nasty as it like gross or nasty as in like mean. >> No, it’s gross. >> Oh, okay. We don’t need gross. If it was >> Eugene, I appreciate it. >> If they were trying to talk trash on me, I’d say read it, you know. >> Right. Right. >> It’s gross. No. >> Right. Um, all right. Last super chat of the night. Ultravoid $10.

3:31:50 I know I only ask important questions. How are the Jedi not the evil ones? They kidnap children and force them into future into being future Jedi and have mind control to remove people’s free will. >> I agree. >> There you go. >> I think I think it’s all structured around a very lame watered down timu version of Buddhism. That is why Star Wars is the inferior franchise to Star Trek and always has All right. So, basically what uh Father Steven D. Young is saying is Anakin did nothing wrong. The Younglings had it coming. No, [laughter] >> no, just kidding. >> The uh there’s a story I’m not going to tell about that.

3:32:35 Um but uh yeah the uh Star Trek Star Trek if you’ve seen the episodes of the original series Breaded Circuses uh Balance of Terror and Who Mourns for Adden Eyes, you will know that uh Star Trek is Christian in the future. So >> there you go. >> Gene Rodberry didn’t want it, but it snuck in anyway because standards and practices on CBS in the late 60s. >> Nice. What? When are you gonna do your your Twin Peaks debate with Jay? >> I don’t know. He’s running from me. >> You know what’s behind that? You know what’s honestly behind that? >> No. What? Go ahead. >> So, like I’m actually like I’ I’ve been a Twin Peaks fan since it originally aired.

3:33:21 I watched it in high school when it originally aired. >> And the first thing from Jay I ever saw, I didn’t know he had any connection to orthodoxy. And at the time I saw this years ago, I think he was a catacum. >> And I don’t even know if the video was new at that time. The video might have been old already because he had a set like he was on a set doing a show. >> Okay. Yes. Yes. >> So I think this is like way back, but it was about Twin I was looking at Twin Peaks stuff on YouTube. I watch his Twin Peak and I don’t even remember what he said in it, but I remember watching it going, “No, this guy doesn’t this guy doesn’t get Twin >> He doesn’t >> that was and then later I found out he was coming into the Orthodox church and all this. But so that’s why I, you know, Twin Peaks is the only thing I disagree about.

3:34:09 But I’d have to go back and watch the video to you and find out what it was I disagreed about. >> You got to do like a um even if it’s not like a debate, it would be interesting to see like a film analysis type video collaboration between you two on Twin Peaks. That would be interesting. >> Yeah. He just he just did one with um Jim Bob on I don’t remember what film, but he’s doing he’s he likes doing the film analysis videos. So, that’d be kind of cool to check out. >> The uh when when the return Twin Peaks the Return came out, I don’t think you could still find it on Facebook because I deactivated Facebook a long time ago. >> That was the only social media I ever did. And yuck. Um, but [laughter] but there was a thread at the time it came out when the finale to the return came out where I explained uh what it was all about to Father Barnabas Powell.

3:35:03 >> There’s like this huge like [laughter] Facebook thread like going through like poetry and references in the original series. So that was my most recent Twin Peaks uh thing was uh explaining to Father Barnabas who was utterly confused. But yeah, I would totally do a thing with I had here’s how old school a Twin Peaks fan I am. >> Twin Peaks was one of the first shows they put out on video. It was a box set of six VHS’s, [laughter] right? And only old heads will know VHS’s you could record at different speeds. There’s like SP where you could put two hours on it, LP was four hours and SLP was eight hours, but the the the longer you used, the less quality it had.

3:35:58 >> So this was uh six SLP videotapes to get the whole original series. So it was like potato >> Nice. [laughter] >> But like all the episodes and like potato quality by VHS standards. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> All in one box set. I had to pay like 90 bucks for it or something like >> good. You just saw you just saw blobs talking to each other and you said, “I imagine this is actually pretty good.” >> Yeah. Yeah. And then I remember it came out on DVD and I bought that. Then it came out on Blu-ray and I bought that and like Yeah. So >> nice. But yeah, I would totally argue I would I could easily argue for a few hours with Jay about interpreting different things at Twin Peaks. >> There you go. >> If he’d quit running. >> Yeah, if he Yeah, quit [laughter] quit quit running, Jay.

3:36:46 Quit running for the Twin Peaks debate. All right. Well, hey, this has been fun. Um, do you have anything that you want to plug before we wrap up here? >> Yeah, I don’t know. people people know about my books and stuff and podcasts Google my name you’ll find stuff >> you already know Google Google Father Steven the young put type him in on the internet send his name into the void >> and uh you will you will get back uh some information if you want to follow some more of his stuff if you’re not already aware >> uh but yeah let’s set up the um let’s find a date for the Marvel Rival stream >> we just need a time because it’s we’re we’re on a team. It’s crossplatform. So like I play on PS5, Jay could do it on his PS5.

3:37:33 It’s free download, >> Free to play. Other people can do it on PC. And each of us could stream it on our own system. So we could like simal cast like from each player’s perspective while we’re playing the >> Yeah, that would be interesting. I’m >> chat over the top. Yeah, >> let’s um let’s let’s chat let’s chat a bit offline and figure out a date for that. But that’s definitely coming down the pipeline. That’ll be cool. Little six sixperson Marvel Rival stream will be interesting. But thank you all so much for watching. I’m going to head off and get some shutye and thanks for coming on the show. Uh Father Stephen the Young. I really appreciate it. >> Y’all have a good night. God bless.