Dialogue With An Eastern Orthodox Priest w/ @AaronGallagherTV and @FrStephenDeYoung

Source: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PbqEvpWNDz0

Overview

This is a two-hour dialogue between Fr. Stephen De Young and two Church of Christ hosts (Marco and Aaron Gallagher) on baptism — the point of sharpest divergence between their traditions. The conversation moves from a broad statement of the Orthodox theology of baptism (death/rebirth, renewal of the image, theosis) through the specific contested questions: infant baptism, the circumcision–baptism continuity, Colossians 2, Jeremiah 31, the innocence of infants and the intermediate state, the Confession of Dositheus, the catechumenate, Romans 6, and Acts 2:39. It closes with a discussion of the “one true church” claim and why FDY regards it as an invitation rather than an insult.

1. Framing: why baptism matters at all

FDY’s opening statement of the Orthodox view is that baptism is “the end of one life and the beginning of another” 14:05. Crucially, sin is not conceived primarily in forensic/guilt terms but in terms of its effects on the person 14:05. In baptism the old self with its sin dies; a new person comes into being whose human nature has been renewed to be like Christ’s human nature, which has been united to God 14:05. This begins a life of drawing closer to God, “participating in the divine energies” — God’s activities in the world — and of transformation toward being formed in the likeness of Christ 14:51. He uses the image/likeness distinction: in baptism the image is renewed, and then we begin to grow in the likeness 14:51. The language of purification is used because human nature must be purified in order to be united to God 14:51.

Marco frames the Church of Christ position: baptism is necessary for salvation; one who comes to Christ must submit to baptism in water for the remission of sins 12:17. Both sides agree that the New Testament ties baptism and salvation together (Galatians 3:27 — “put on Christ”; Romans 6 — newness of life) 17:14.

2. The thief on the cross and the limits of exceptions

FDY’s answer to the standard counter-arguments is that most of them are confusions about terms 18:09. The thief on the cross is a genuine exception, but “if you’re being crucified next to the Lord, there may be a different set of rules that apply to you” — the person making the objection is “living in the United States of America in the 21st century” and has no reason not to be baptized 18:09. God is not bound by His own rules; the rules are for us 18:09. The Orthodox do not claim God cannot save someone who hasn’t received the sacraments — He can do what He wants — but this is the path He has set before us 19:04.

He adds a hermeneutical principle: Scripture is not given as a measuring stick to judge others but to inform me 20:05. Whether an unbaptized person is damned is between him and God; what I know is that I need to be baptized 20:05.

3. The Gnostic genealogy of anti-sacramental arguments

Aaron recounts reading Tertullian’s De Baptismo, which opens by saying we obtain remission of sins in water and then attacks “those vipers of the Cainite heresy” whose first aim is to destroy baptism 21:41. He notes the Gnostics’ arguments (Why would Paul say Christ sent me not to baptize? Abraham wasn’t baptized) are essentially the same arguments heard from Baptist pulpits today 21:41.

FDY agrees and identifies the philosophical root: the same Platonic metaphysics that says God does not work through material things, through creation 22:37. “Just dunking somebody in water three times — what can that possibly do?” 22:37. Against this, the counter-question is: how could a spiritual God cleanse Naaman of a physical disease? Because He is God 23:35. He also notes Calvin’s commentary habits — dismissing the patristic consensus on John 3:5 (“water” = baptism) as inappropriate, and denying that Melchizedek’s bread and wine in Genesis 14 is a type of the Eucharist 15:41, 16:27.

4. Infant baptism: the argument from covenant continuity

FDY’s core methodological claim: his default is continuity, and where the New Covenant changes something, the New Testament says so 31:11, 32:10. He can show from Hebrews why animal sacrifice stops, from Acts why worship moves to the Lord’s Day; if children were now excluded from the covenant until an “age of knowing good and evil,” he would expect that change to be spelled out 32:10. He explicitly connects this to the Alex Oren–Aaron Gallagher apostolic succession debate: the underlying issue there was how much continuity exists between the Old and New Covenants 33:56.

The positive case:

• Circumcision was commanded to Abraham as head of household, to be applied to his sons on the eighth day 27:45.
• Colossians 2 says those baptized have been circumcised with Christ’s circumcision 28:30. This is the epistle reading for the Feast of the Circumcision (January 1), between Nativity and Theophany (January 6) 28:30; the hymns there dwell on Christ, the giver of Torah, coming under the Torah He gave 28:30.
• 1 Corinthians 7:14: the believing spouse sanctifies the unbelieving spouse and the children 29:23. FDY argues Paul is repurposing the Jewish logic of circumcision, where a woman or daughter was incorporated into Israel through the circumcised male head of household; because baptism applies to both sexes, Paul can apply the logic in both directions 29:23.

On the “household” passages (Acts 16, etc.), he concedes the back-and-forth over whether infants were present is “kind of a dead end” — “unless we get a time machine and a GoPro” 30:22. The strength of the argument is not the nitpicked detail but the presumption of continuity 31:11.

5. Chrysostom on why baptize an infant who has no sins

FDY cites St. John Chrysostom, who was asked: if baptism is for remission of sins and the baby has committed none, why baptize? Chrysostom runs through the other things baptism does — newness of life, restoration of human nature (which we inherit as mortal, fallible, weak, prone to sin) — and says the infant receives all these other benefits 33:56. FDY stresses that Chrysostom does not take the later Augustinian route of inherited guilt, which he says contradicts Ezekiel 59:22.

The parental commitment is integral: bringing a child to baptism is committing to raise it in the Church, bring it to the sacraments, educate it in the faith 36:34. Those not in good standing cannot have their children baptized because they cannot make that commitment; the exception is faithful godparents who can 36:34.

6. Circumcision vs. baptism: what actually changes

Baptism fulfills circumcision but is superior, not a one-to-one replacement 38:16. FDY notes the euphemism in Genesis 24 (the servant placing his hand “on Abraham’s thigh” to swear) — in Israelite culture this is an oath on the genitals, i.e., on one’s seed/posterity, which is why the mark of the covenant is placed there 39:03, 39:49.

The deeper argument is from Hebrews: circumcision placed you under the holiness code, but that code shows its own obsolescence because everything must be repeated — Day of Atonement every year, sin offerings every day, constant purification and rededication 40:44. It is a “sin management system” until the Messiah deals with sin once for all 40:44. Baptism is therefore “one baptism” in the Creed — a one-time act accomplishing once and for all what all the Old Testament washings and sacrificial purifications accomplished repeatedly, because we die and rise with Christ who died and rose once and will not die again 41:34.

7. Colossians 2: proof text or occasional letter?

Marco presses Colossians 2:11–12: the passage speaks of “sins of the flesh,” of being “dead in your trespasses,” and of faith — qualities that seem to isolate non-infants. FDY’s twofold reply:

1. Much of that could have been said to a circumcised Israelite: Deuteronomy tells adults “circumcise your heart,” even though they were circumcised at eight days old 44:10.
2. Paul is writing to people he baptized, most of them as adults 44:10. In 1 Corinthians 6, “such were some of you” doesn’t directly apply to the three-year-olds in the congregation 45:06. Requiring Paul to add “by the way, I’m only addressing adult converts” demands too much precision 45:06.

More fundamentally, FDY rejects reading the epistles as systematic theology 47:35. They are real letters to real congregations addressing real situations; the theological extraction comes after understanding the situation 47:35. In Colossians, Paul is addressing the circumcision party: you don’t need to be circumcised and undergo the cutting of the flesh because baptism has done what circumcision only foreshadowed 48:29. Marco’s move generalizes more than FDY would 49:21. Both hosts agree that the “Paul pauses to teach my pet doctrine” reading is bad exegesis 49:21.

Aaron’s reading: physical cutting vs. spiritual cutting; the “faith in the working of God” in v. 12 indicates the individual’s faith 50:55. He adds 1 Corinthians 3:1 (“babes in Christ” = new converts, not infants) 52:44.

8. Jeremiah 31, kaine, and the nature of the New Covenant

Aaron cites Jeremiah 31:31–34 as evidence of a real covenant difference, with the New Covenant predicated on individual faith and repentance 52:44, 55:22.

FDY’s response turns on kaine diatheke: kaine does not necessarily mean “never seen before” 56:56. He compares 1 John’s “new commandment” — which is what they had from the beginning, renewed 56:56. His reading is a renewed covenant, not a disparate one; this reconciles Christ’s “not one yod or tittle will pass” 56:56. What changes is that external obedience becomes internal — the Torah written on the heart (Jeremiah 31, Ezekiel, Joel 2) 57:44. Following Chrysostom’s homilies on Romans, the great theme of the Christian life is that the indwelling Holy Spirit empowers us to keep the commandments 57:44, 58:31. In the Old Covenant the Spirit indwelt a prophet or king; now all believers have the indwelling Spirit 58:31.

9. Innocence, mortality, and the intermediate state

FDY distinguishes innocent from perfect 1:01:01, 1:27:16. Adam was not perfect but innocent — like a child, created in the image and commanded to be formed into the likeness, given the command to fill and subdue the earth before the fall 1:01:01. Genesis 1:2’s tohu wa-bohu (formless and void) sets up the pattern: days 1–3 God orders, days 4–6 He fills, then commands humanity to continue that work 1:01:52. Sin broke that process; we still receive the same command but now face additional obstacles — sin, death, the devil — which Christ deals with, and which we receive in baptism, beginning again from that innocent point 1:03:36. Paul’s language of becoming mature/perfect/fullness is about this ongoing process, not a “justified, now done” state 1:03:36.

On Romans 5: death reigned over all, “even those who did not sin in the likeness of Adam” 59:22. Infants are mortal and subject to the effects of Adam’s sin — a world full of sin, violence, temptation, and demonic influence — even without personal transgression 1:00:08. The baptismal prayers speak of preservation and purification from exactly this 1:01:01.

On unbaptized infants who die: FDY cites St. Gregory of Nyssa’s treatise On the Souls of Infants 1:07:55. Such children have not begun the life of participation, so in the intermediate state they do not enter into their reward — but they emphatically do not go to condemnation, because they have not sinned 1:08:45. The fathers’ language is that they are “safe,” “preserved” for the life of the world to come 1:10:41. At the resurrection of the body — which includes every human who ever lived — they will not remain infants for eternity; the process of drawing closer to God continues eternally, since the distance between creature and Creator is infinite 1:09:34. Theosis is a road; the saints are simply further ahead on it, and an infant is further back — but the road stretches into eternity, so this is no real disadvantage 1:11:27.

10. The Confession of Dositheus and the “Latinizers”

Marco raises the Confession of Dositheus (1672), which in some translations seems to say unbaptized infants are “subject to eternal punishment.” FDY’s answer: there are multiple versions in different languages, some approved by bishops and some not, and the key divide is between the Greek text approved as binding and the Latin text 1:13:52, 1:14:39. The Greek is specific about infants 1:14:39. Even the “subject to” language leaves room for God to do what He wants on the day of judgment — which is why the Orthodox pray for the departed 1:14:39. Much of the apparent harshness comes from texts about the intermediate state (Hades, not Gehenna), and from the distinction between Hades and Gehenna 1:15:32, 1:16:26. He calls the online “Latinizers” not a school of Orthodox theologians but “randomly people on Twitter” 1:07:02.

A key practical contrast: Roman Catholics have a tradition of attempting to locate and baptize miscarried remains because of the Augustinian view; the Orthodox have no such tradition and it is not permitted 1:18:05. This difference in practice is “really revelatory” 1:18:05.

11. Emergency baptism, chrismation, and reception

Emergency baptism can be performed by anyone, lay or clergy, when death is imminent 1:17:15, 1:19:45. If the person survives, the baptism is “regularized”: they are chrismated (anointed with oil for the reception of the Holy Spirit) and receive the Eucharist for the first time 1:20:34. This is also the basis for receiving converts from some backgrounds by chrismation and Eucharist rather than rebaptism — their baptism outside the Church is regularized 1:21:25.

On why Orthodox countries sometimes baptize at two or three years old: it is a vestige of situations (e.g., Muslim-majority countries) where clergy were scarce and baptisms were done in batches when a priest could travel; after a century of practice it became custom 1:19:45.

12. The catechumenate: character, not curriculum

FDY is candid that catechesis in American Orthodoxy was done badly for a long time, and that his bishop, Metropolitan Saba, is working with the other US bishops on guidelines 1:30:28. The historical situation: immigrant churches sent for priests from countries under Islam or communism; when ordinary Americans began converting in the later 20th century, parishes improvised, often modeling on RCIA — a lecture curriculum (“Orthodoxy 101”) that taught converts facts about the councils that lifelong Orthodox didn’t know, giving the false impression that Orthodoxy is an intellectual hurdle 1:32:26.

The original catechumenate (1–3 years, per Hippolytus’ Apostolic Tradition) was calibrated to the life the person had led — hence the lists of forbidden occupations (the juggler) 1:33:30. It was about changing one’s way of living and becoming part of the community: catechumens attend services, participate in fellowship, learn fasting and prayer, and repent of prior life — correcting cohabitation, immoral work, etc. 1:35:23. If a catechumen dies, they receive an Orthodox funeral 1:34:35. The concern is the apostasy passages in Hebrews: don’t receive someone quickly, give them the sacraments, and have them fall back 1:36:11. FDY’s illustration: if during a two-week process you discovered the person had hired a prostitute, you’d slow down 1:36:11.

He is not dogmatic about duration — a bishop could baptize someone this Sunday without violating doctrine 1:42:44. The average in practice is closer to six months, though a year is announced 1:43:31. The purpose is character, not information: “It should be a character thing” 1:45:59. He notes that catechumens rarely complain about waiting, and that some later wish they’d had longer 1:42:44, 1:44:16. Marco’s objection — that Acts shows immediate baptisms (the Philippian jailer “in the same hour of the night,” Acts 16:25ff; the Ethiopian eunuch; Saul’s three days) — FDY grants, noting Paul is a unique case as an apostle 1:41:04. Marco’s own pastoral example: he refused to baptize a man who said he would not stop a particular sin, citing 2 Peter on worse condemnation 1:47:35.

13. Romans 6: slavery, the reign of sin, and “sin” vs. “sins”

Marco argues Romans 6 ties baptism to the presence of sin in the individual (slaves to sin becoming slaves to righteousness, 6:16–18). FDY’s reply:

• Slavery was generational: children born into slavery hadn’t contracted the debt but were born slaves 1:53:45.
• Paul almost always uses sin in the singular, meaning the power, versus sins plural, meaning transgressions 1:53:45. The singular follows Genesis 4: sin crouching at the door, a master to be mastered 1:54:34. Sin entered the world through Adam and is “after his son” in the very next generation 1:54:34. A child is born innocent, not yet mastered by sin, but mortal and in a world where sin is active and out to kill 1:55:27. Baptizing an infant removes them from that world and places them in Christ, no longer subject to the power of death and sin 1:55:27.

On Romans 6:1 (“shall we sin that grace may abound?”): FDY reads this as Paul answering a distortion of his Romans 5 argument — that God brought good out of Adam’s transgression, so why not sin more? 1:57:01. He notes the optative mē genoito (“may it never be”), almost never used in New Testament Greek, as an emphatic rejection 1:57:50. He mentions Luther’s “Sin Boldly” sermon as a pastoral letter to a scrupulous friend, not a recommendation to sin 1:58:36, 1:59:31, and 1 John 1 as the counterbalance 1:59:31.

The slavery language is Exodus/Passover language: Israel was freed from slavery in Egypt to serve God 2:01:07. Sin “reigning” is kingly language 2:01:07. He declines to press the metaphor (“they brought their kids with them when they left Egypt”) as a legitimate argument — Paul didn’t have that in view 2:01:07.

14. Acts 2:39 and 1 Corinthians 7:14 — modest uses of texts

On Acts 2:39 (“the promise is to you and to your children”), FDY explicitly declines to treat it as a proof text for infant baptism 2:05:09. He reads it against the Deuteronomy language of inheritance and generational continuity (“when your son asks you…”) 2:05:09. It is a data point toward continuity, not a proof text — a use Marco says he respects 2:06:58. It would directly refute an extreme Baptist view that children should be raised as non-Christians until the age of accountability 2:06:05.

On 1 Corinthians 7:14, Aaron surveys the options: the context is marriage (do I stay with an unbelieving spouse?), with the Old Testament background of Ezra 10 / Nehemiah 13 on foreign wives 2:07:46. The point is that the children are not illegitimate/unclean but holy — which both sides can affirm as innocence 2:08:34. FDY notes that if the pagan spouse were the husband, he might not have permitted infant baptism anyway 2:08:34, and mentions 1 Peter 3 on the wife winning the husband by conduct 2:09:25. A viewer’s follow-up — if one Christian parent sanctifies the child, why baptize? — is answered by distinguishing categories: innocence and sanctification in that passage are not the same thing as covenant incorporation 2:25:51.

15. The one true church: invitation, not insult

Prompted by the online controversy over Orthodox claims of exclusivity, FDY’s line is that “our claim to be the one true church… is an invitation, not an insult” 2:35:45. The claim is not “we’re the best denomination”; it is that Christ has one body. He notes the irony that Protestant groups that historically killed each other over these questions now hold hands and call the Orthodox mean 2:31:40. He respects Tony Costa’s honesty in stating plainly that Orthodoxy preaches a false gospel and is anathema — that is a position you can argue with 2:31:40. He compares his friendship with an Orthodox Jew: each thinks the other is badly wrong on the most important thing, and they can still be brothers in Adam 2:32:30. Marco makes the parallel Church of Christ point: the “you think you’re the only ones going to heaven” caricature treats a truth claim as a sports-team boast 2:33:26, and the time-machine-to-Acts-2 argument shows no first-century Christian would recognize any modern denomination 2:34:13.

16. Assurance of salvation

Asked whether he knows he is in the Book of Life, FDY uses the marriage metaphor 2:20:51. Louisiana is a no-fault divorce state; his wife could file papers any time, but he doesn’t sit around worrying, because he knows her and loves her 2:20:51. He also knows there are things he could do that would destroy the marriage 2:20:51. So: confidence in Christ, who is the truth and will not forsake him, combined with the knowledge that he controls his own actions — and if he is concerned, he examines his life, repents, confesses, and makes it right 2:21:42. Marco adds Matthew 18:21–22 (forgiveness 70×7) and the account of Roy Ratcliff baptizing Jeffrey Dahmer — “I’m not aware of a single sin that the blood of Christ can’t cleanse” 2:23:20, 2:24:08. FDY adds that those who think Dahmer’s sin is unforgivable don’t understand their own sinfulness; with that view they would despair of their own salvation 2:25:02.

FDY’s positions in brief

Topic	FDY’s view	Where
Nature of baptism	Death of the old self and beginning of a new life; renewal of the image, growth in the likeness; purification of human nature for union with God	14:05, 14:51
Sin	Primarily the effects on the person, not merely guilt; Paul’s singular “sin” = the power (Genesis 4), plural “sins” = transgressions	14:05, 1:53:45
Thief on the cross	A genuine exception; God isn’t bound by His rules, but the rules are for us and the objector isn’t on a cross	18:09
Anti-sacramental arguments	Rooted in Platonic metaphysics that denies God works through matter; already present in the Cainite Gnostics Tertullian refutes	22:37, 21:41
Infant baptism	Default is covenant continuity; the New Testament spells out changes, and this isn’t one; circumcision→baptism (Col 2), household logic (1 Cor 7:14)	31:11, 27:45, 29:23
Chrysostom on infant baptism	Infants have no personal sins but receive baptism’s other benefits: newness of life, restored nature, indwelling Spirit, protection	33:56, 1:04:26
Colossians 2	Occasional letter addressing the circumcision party, not a systematic theology of baptism; not a proof text either way	47:35, 48:29
Jeremiah 31 / kaine	A renewed covenant, not a disparate one; external obedience becomes internal through the indwelling Spirit	56:56, 57:44
Adam	Innocent, not perfect; a child at the beginning of a process, not one who had arrived	1:01:01, 1:27:16
Unbaptized infants who die	Innocent, no condemnation; “safe”/“preserved” in the intermediate state (Hades, not Gehenna); begin the process at the resurrection (Gregory of Nyssa)	1:08:45, 1:10:41, 1:15:32
Confession of Dositheus	Must read the approved Greek text, not the Latin; “subject to” language concerns the intermediate state and leaves room for God’s mercy	1:13:52, 1:14:39
Emergency baptism	Anyone may perform it; if the person lives, chrismation and Eucharist regularize it	1:17:15, 1:20:34
Catechumenate	About character and way of life, not information; not dogmatically fixed in length; the RCIA-style lecture model is a modern American distortion being corrected	1:45:59, 1:32:26, 1:42:44
Romans 6	Slavery is generational; baptism removes one from the world under sin’s power and places one in Christ; 6:1 answers a distortion of Romans 5	1:53:45, 1:55:27, 1:57:01
Acts 2:39	A data point for continuity, not a proof text for infant baptism	2:05:09
One true church	An invitation, not an insult; honesty about exclusive claims is preferable to indifferentism	2:35:45, 2:31:40
Assurance	Marriage metaphor: confidence in Christ plus vigilance over one’s own actions, repentance, and confession	2:20:51, 2:21:42

References surfaced

Biblical

• Genesis 1:2 (tohu wa-bohu); Genesis 1:26–28 (image, fill and subdue); Genesis 4 (sin crouching at the door); Genesis 14 (Melchizedek); Genesis 24 (oath on the thigh); Genesis 50:20 (Joseph)
• Exodus (Passover, slavery to service)
• Leviticus (holiness code); Deuteronomy 1; Deuteronomy 29:29
• Isaiah 7 (age of knowing good and evil)
• Jeremiah 31:31–34; Ezekiel (new covenant); Joel 2
• Ezra 10; Nehemiah 13
• Matthew 18:21–22; Matthew 19 (the rich young man, “if you want to be perfect”)
• John 3:5 (Calvin’s commentary)
• Acts 2:38–39, 41, 47; Acts 5:14; Acts 9; Acts 16:25ff (Philippian jailer); Acts 22:16
• Romans 5; Romans 6 (esp. 6:1, 6:16–18); Romans 4
• 1 Corinthians 1 (Paul not sent to baptize); 1 Corinthians 3:1 (“babes in Christ”); 1 Corinthians 6 (“such were some of you”); 1 Corinthians 7:14
• Galatians 3:27
• Colossians 2:11–12
• Hebrews (sacrifices, Day of Atonement, apostasy passages)
• 1 Peter 3 (winning the husband); 2 Peter (worse condemnation)
• 1 John 1; 1 John 2 (Antichrist passage); 1 John (new commandment)

Patristic and ancient

• Tertullian, De Baptismo (Cainite heresy)
• St. John Chrysostom, Homilies on Romans; on the Philippian jailer
• St. Gregory of Nyssa, On the Souls of Infants
• St. Irenaeus, Against Heresies (recapitulation)
• Origen (condemned as a heretic; his biblical exegesis defended by some saints)
• Hippolytus, Apostolic Tradition (catechumenate, occupations)
• Epistle of Barnabas (318 servants, gematria)
• Aristides, Apology
• Apocalypse of Peter (Acherusian Lake, baptism of infants in Hades)
• Shepherd of Hermas; Cyprian
• Confession of Dositheus (1672) — Greek vs. Latin versions

Scholarly and modern

• John Calvin, commentaries on John 3:5 and Genesis 14
• Martin Luther, “Sin Boldly” sermon
• Everett Ferguson (Church of Christ historian)
• Dr. Rodney Cloud, Dr. Kirkland (Amridge University)
• Metropolitan Saba (catechesis guidelines)
• Roy Ratcliff (baptism of Jeffrey Dahmer)
• B. J. Clark, “Switch Church to Join”
• Tony Costa, David Wood (the Cleve channel discussion)